Lightroom Classic: Reverts to custom order following an external image edit in Ps, despite being set to date order

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  • Updated 3 weeks ago
  • (Edited)
When sort order is set to date order, it then changes to custom order each and every time an image is edited in Photoshop
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Nick Harrison

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Posted 2 years ago

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John McNairn

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yeah it happens to me nearly all the time, mine goes to the end sometimes, other times it gets mixed in with a new order and you have to try and find it....when you have a shoot containing about 1000 images it's very frustrating. I'm trying Lightroom alternatives at the moment.

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Jack Line

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I also shoot weddings and this is going to really mess things up. Does anyone know why this is happening and how to get back to how things worked before?
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I think it's unlikely this bug will be addressed until Adobe product developers can reproduce it. Reviewing past posts, two employees and at least two very experienced users have tried but failed. 

If several of you experiencing this bug could post full-resolution screen recordings on Dropbox, Google Drive, Youtube, or similar, showing the full screen with your entire workflow, from selecting a photo to edit in Library grid view, editing it in Photoshop, returning to Library, this could provide more clues about how to reproduce the problem.  (Using Library grid view rather than Loupe view in Library or Develop might provide more clues; but if it only happens in Loupe view, then a screen recording of that would be better than nothing.)
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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The original poster provided two screen recordings, but unfortunately, they're no longer available on Youtube.
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John McNairn

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I will upload one shortly to vimeo.....its a nude image so youtube wont accept it
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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> its a nude image so youtube wont accept it

Please bear in mind that this is also a family-friendly site...
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John McNairn

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i will post a link only
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John McNairn

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I manage a goldfinch video.....safe and family friendly

https://vimeo.com/342464270


The other vids on my channel are Art Nude....be careful
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Nick Harrison

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This is identical to the problem I continually have on the Apple Mac with Lightroom, where I usually have the order set to Capture, but on returning from Photoshop the order changes to Custom, and I have to set it back to Capture Time.  Very frustrating 
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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John, your video has all the clues need to explain what you're observing. (If a picture is worth a 1000 words, a video can be worth ten times that.) Your issue is different than Nick's (the original poster).

You're working in a folder set to Sort: Custom Order. You edit the first file, a raw, in Photoshop and then save that file as a TIFF. LR stacks that TIFF on top of the original raw (you have the option Preferences > External Editing > Stack With Original set). And then that stack moves to the end of the filmstrip.

This occurs because LR always sorts grid view and the film strip by the attributes of the top photo in a stack. When any file gets added to a folder or collection with Custom Order, that file's custom-order position gets set to the end of the folder or collection (e.g. if there are 3 photos in the folder and you add one to the folder, it gets position 4).

Thus, in this situation, the newly added TIFF gets a Custom Order position at the end of the folder, and since it's on top of the stack, the stack gets sorted at the end of the filmstrip. You can verify this by right-clicking the original raw and doing Stacking > Move To Top Of Stack -- the stack moves to the beginning of the filmstrip.

A partial workaround is to set the sort order of the filmstrip to Capture Time or File Name.  Then the stack won't get moved around when you edit, since the newly added TIFF will sort in the same location as the original raw. Of course, if you really want that custom order in your editing workflow, this workaround isn't satisfactory.

I think it would be less confusing for a TIFF created by Photo > Edit In to inherit the Custom Order position from the original.  Then the resulting stack wouldn't jump around in the filmstrip.  You could file a separate feature request for that -- Adobe won't see it buried here. 

Nick, the original poster, observes a different problem: He's editing a photo in a folder or collection (not clear which) with Sort: Capture Time, and after returning to Photoshop the order gets set to Sort: Custom Order.
(Edited)
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John McNairn

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Hi John

No, sorry....all my folders are set to Capture time. They are only set to Custom sort when Lightroom fails as shown in the video. The folder the goldfinch was in was set to Capture before sending it to PS. I'll see if I can get another video showing the 'sort' before edit.
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John McNairn

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The point is.....something is causing the sort to change, I always set it to Capture
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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The video shows Sort: Custom Order before you invoke Edit In. So at least in this case, it's the stacking issue causing the reordering.  A video showing Sort: Capture Time before you invoke Edit In could be helpful, as would starting in Library grid view rather than Loupe view -- that will show more LR settings that are hidden by Loupe view.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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John McNairn

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Actually I found something odd.....you dont actually have to send an image to PS for editing, LR seems to change from capture to custom without it. I set all my folders in 2009 to Capture....went back to double check and one has set itself to custom without editing anything.
I will see if I can video it.
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John McNairn

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Well spotted John...so it is, something is changing it, re my last post.
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John McNairn

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Ok definitely the sort is changing without editing, all 2009 folders were at Capture. I reset LR and the folder I last used is now at Custom without doing anything. It's a bit random to try and capture on video but will try tomorrow.
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Nick Harrison

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To confirm - I work in folders, not collections (importing from folders as set up in Finder, working on the photos contained within, and then archiving afterwards from Lightroom to avoid overloading)
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John McNairn

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I found that it changes from Capture to Custom on clicking an image, got it on video. I just need to edit the useless section of the video. Will post shortly.
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John McNairn

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So 20 seconds into the video you can see the order change on its own, I didn't even click on the image, just hovered the mouse over an image. 

https://vimeo.com/342546452

I didn't even notice it had changed til later, as you can see in the video.
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John McNairn

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Here's another example at 5:00 mins

https://youtu.be/YT63p4ISdis


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John R. Ellis, Champion

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John, can you please post the entire output from the menu command Help > System Info?  I've got some hypotheses based on your recent two videos, and seeing the detailed configuration could help refine them.
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John McNairn

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Sure, here it is :-

Lightroom Classic version: 8.3.1 [ 201905241238-dcd7e2de ]
License: Creative Cloud
Language setting: en
Operating system: Windows 10 - Business Edition
Version: 10.0.17763
Application architecture: x64
System architecture: x64
Logical processor count: 4
Processor speed: 3.4 GHz
Built-in memory: 16336.4 MB
Real memory available to Lightroom: 16336.4 MB
Real memory used by Lightroom: 2455.8 MB (15.0%)
Virtual memory used by Lightroom: 2787.5 MB
GDI objects count: 636
USER objects count: 1867
Process handles count: 2144
Memory cache size: 766.5MB
Internal Camera Raw version: 11.3 [ 197 ]
Maximum thread count used by Camera Raw: 3
Camera Raw SIMD optimization: SSE2,AVX
Camera Raw virtual memory: 1126MB / 8168MB (13%)
Camera Raw real memory: 1129MB / 16336MB (6%)
System DPI setting: 96 DPI
Desktop composition enabled: Yes
Displays: 1) 1920x1080
Input types: Multitouch: No, Integrated touch: No, Integrated pen: No, External touch: No, External pen: No, Keyboard: No

Graphics Processor Info: 
DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 750 Ti (26.21.14.3086)



Application folder: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Lightroom Classic
Library Path: D:\Users\Fox\Pictures\Lightroom\Lightroom 4 Catalog-2-2-2-2.lrcat
Settings Folder: C:\Users\Fox\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom

Installed Plugins: 
1) AdobeStock
2) Facebook
3) Flickr
4) HDR Efex Pro 2
5) Lightroom to Exposure
6) LR/Instagram
7) Nikon Tether Plugin
8) ON1 Effects Standalone 2019
9) SlickPic v5
10) ViewBug

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Video Memory : 2007
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Video Memory : 0
AudioDeviceIOBlockSize: 1024
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GL_GREEN_BITS: 8
GL_MAX_3D_TEXTURE_SIZE: 2048
GL_MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE: 16384
GL_MAX_TEXTURE_UNITS: 4
GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS: 16384,16384
GL_RED_BITS: 8
GL_RENDERER: GeForce GTX 750 Ti/PCIe/SSE2
GL_SHADING_LANGUAGE_VERSION: 4.60 NVIDIA
GL_STENCIL_BITS: 8
GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation
GL_VERSION: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 430.86
GPUDeviceEnabled: false
OGLEnabled: true
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Thanks. One more question: Are you using a mouse, and if so, do you have a mouse helper utility (e.g. Logitech) installed?
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John McNairn

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it's a mouse...with a mouse button configurator called X-Mouse Button Control 
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I'm wondering if the combination of mouse, X-Mouse Button Control, and LR is generating spurious mouse click or drag events of very short duration. LR's sort order changes to Custom with very short drags even if they're not large enough to change the actual order. If these drags are short enough, then LR may not have time to generate a noticeable visual indication that the drag has started.

Further, I noticed in the two videos that this happens when you start mousing over filmstrip thumbnails that have three dots in the upper-right corner. The three dots indicate that LR hasn't yet generated a standard-sized preview for the photo. Normally, when you click on such a thumbnail, LR moves that photo to the head of the queue for background preview generation, which can cause a spike in CPU utilization and change both Windows and LR's scheduling of concurrent tasks.  This process might cause timing "races" somehow between X-Mouse Button Control and LR that generate the spurious clicks.

LR's internal architecture has some basic design "gotchas" with respect to concurrent programming (multiple simultaneous tasks), and these sorts of rare races can sneak in even with the most careful programming.  Or it could be a problem solely with X-Mouse Button Control or the mouse driver.  Hard to know from the outside.

Regardless, to determine if this is the cause, I'd suggest using a generic mass-brand mouse (e.g. Microsoft or Logitech) with no extra mouse software installed (i.e. uninstalled, not just disabled).  If the problem doesn't recur, then you know it's somewhere between the mouse hardware and LR. You could go back to your current mouse but no X-Mouse, and then try the generic mouse with X-Mouse installed, and see which combination (if either) generates the problem.

Painful, but that's where the evidence is pointing.
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John McNairn

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I think you could be right there John, I'll try disabling the X-mouse and see what happens. Many thanks for your help and insights :)
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Nick Harrison

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And would this apply to using a Wacom tablet and pen ? I have never used a mouse with LR (I don’t have one), so it would be difficult/impossible to work without the Wacom. I would hope that such common hardware/software as Wacom does not effect LR in the way we are experiencing
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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The hypothesis is that there's an incompatibility between LR and pointing-device drivers/utilities that causes infrequent, spurious small click-and-drags when you hover the mouse over thumbnails in the filmstrip.   So it's entirely possible that this is the cause of your problems. But so far, it's just a hypothesis that needs to be verified.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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A possible way to reduce or eliminate the spontaneous switches to Custom Order: Select all the images in grid view or in the filmstrip, do Library > Build Standard-Size Previews, and wait for that to finish before starting to work. 

My hypothesis is that, at least for John McNairn, clicking on a thumbnail that doesn't yet have a preview triggers LR to build one, which causes a spike in CPU usage, which makes the spurious click-and-drag more likely.  Again, just a hypothesis.
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John McNairn

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Is there any way of 'locking' the sort function into Capture Time mode?
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Unfortunately not. And the sort order isn't exposed to plugins, so it isn't possible to write a plugin that would change the order back automatically.
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John McNairn

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ah well many thanks for your help :)
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Kai Dong

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It's funny that two Adobe employees can't reproduce the problem, while so many others have been suffering it for so long time. I don't remember when this problem started to appear, it's been a long time. But it has nothing to do with the pointer device. Recently switched to Wacom tablet from Logitech mouse, it still exists.

However, I found if you let the LR to load all the thumbnails first, then the problem will not occur.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Did you have the Logitech utility installed? The bug may not be specific to any one device, but it may be provoked by third-party pointing-device drivers and utilities.
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Nick Harrison

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Have you tried testing in conjunction with a Wacom tablet to see if this is a factor to eliminate John ??  I have never used a mouse (pointing device), and always used a Wacom (and trackpad) when working in LR.  I have no other way of pointing on my iMac.
For information, the issue has now become a lot worse - the thumbnail order now changes order, away from Capture Time, constantly.  Every time I check, and it can be every few minutes, the order has changed.  There is certainly something bizarre with this situation (and very inconvenient / frustrating)
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John McNairn

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I think the problem is two fold....the sort is changed if long clicked with the slightest of drag, and there is something else going on that isn't easily seen. First thing Adobe should do is remove the long click problem, the sort should only change when the thumbnail in the film strip is completely moved to a new position. This would at least allow a clearer view of the other problem without spurious mouse/pen clicks etc etc.
(Edited)
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Nick Harrison

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Seems a very sensible way forward and should be simple for Adobe to implement
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John R. Ellis, Champion

  • 4531 Posts
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"the sort should only change when the thumbnail in the film strip is completely moved to a new position"

That's a good idea.
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Jerry Syder

  • 310 Posts
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Yup - it's bizarre the way it currently works. I've gotten used to it and know, almost every time when LR is going to change to custom order when I don't want it to. Yesterday, I highlighted 6 photos and I saw, in the split second that my hand shifted to the right(too much coffee). I then thought to check the sort order and lo and behold, it was changed to custom, so I changed it back to capture time.
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Robert Somrak, Champion

  • 364 Posts
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I was wondering for a long time why my sort order changed at random.  Thanks John McNairn.  This should be an easy fix for Adobe if they can be convinced it is an issue.
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Kai Dong

  • 3 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Hello John, I do have logitech software running at the background. I cannot disable it because my keyboard is also from Logitech. LOL.
Photo of Kai Dong

Kai Dong

  • 3 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Hello John, I do have logitech software running at the background. I cannot disable it because my keyboard is also from Logitech. LOL.