Lightroom Classic: Reverts to custom order following an external image edit in Ps, despite being set to date order

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When sort order is set to date order, it then changes to custom order each and every time an image is edited in Photoshop
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Nick Harrison

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Posted 2 years ago

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Rikk Flohr, Official Rep

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I am not seeing this Nick. Are you in a folder or a collection when you send the image out to Photoshop for editing?

Also, are you sending the Original or an image with Lightroom edits?
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Nick Harrison

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I am editing the original Nikon RAW file from
LR in Ps. The photos are initially imported from a specific folder (in Finder) on my Mac. I never import direct from the camera, always download from camera to Mac and then into LR. Hope that makes sense Rikk
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What I meant was, "Are you in a folder or a collection when you click on the image to send it to Photoshop?"

In any case, I tested it via starting in a Folder and starting in a Collection and in both cases, the Capture Time sort was honored before and after sending to Photoshop. It did not change to Custom Order in any event.

Do you have any filters active when you are viewing the images in your Folder/Collection?
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Nick Harrison

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The only filter I use, if you can call it that, is to set to show images of 2 stars or greater. I start with all images having a 2 star rating, and raise to 3 star as editing completes (or reduce to 1 or 0 for rejected images). Other than than I do not apply any filters. I do assign a preset at import (for exposure, highlights, shadows, etc). Occasionally I set a colour to a photo, not for filtering, but as a reminder that I have combined two or more images in Ps, either as a layered image or panorama. Also set to auto-advance, when I change the star rating. Would any of these actions cause the date order to be lost, only when sending images to Ps ? (I normally work in folders, not collections). I look forward to any advice you can give, thanks
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Since I can't duplicate what you are seeing Nick, I am left with the good old chestnut: Have you reset your preferences lately? Some weirdness is cured by a reset of your preferences file.

1. Close Lightroom.
2. Hold down [Alt/Opt]+[Shift] while launching Lightroom.
3. When prompted, overwrite the preferences.
4. Close Lightroom.
5. Restart your computer. 

Does the behavior persist?
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Nick Harrison

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Thanks for the advice Rikk. I'm away for a couple of days and will try as soon as I am back at my Mac. I'll let you know if this resolves the issue
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Nick Harrison

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Sorry for the delay in responding Rikk.  Back at my Mac now and have reset all of the preferences as you suggest. 
I have just edited an image in Ps and on saving back to LR, the image and original have located themselves at the end of the folder gallery, therefore adopting custom order rather than capture order that the folder was set to.  Do you have any other suggestions as to why this is happening (I have just updated both LR, Camera RAW and Ps to the latest versions
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Nick Harrison

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Oddly this does not happen every time an image is edited in Ps - it seems to be intermittent, and not for any particular reason or treatment in Ps.  I will monitor all edits in Ps to see if there is a pattern emerging
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Rikk Flohr, Official Rep

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Keep me advised on your progress.
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Nick Harrison

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Fine - will do.  At the moment it seems to be happening one in every 5 external edits in Ps.  No obvious reason, but I will keep an eye on things 
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This is something that's annoyed the cr*p out of me for years now too! It just takes a couple of seconds but doing it every time it gets a bit old. Every time I have to go back to Library mode and switch the "Sort:" to "Capture Time".  Absolutely unnecessary to have to do this. Have been seriously thinking about buying Capture One more and more recently.
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Nick Harrison

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This is still happening to me despite several LR updates.  For such a common problem Adobe seem to be ignoring it.  It is not a major issue, but very irritating having to re-set the order event time Ps is used
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I've seen this in the past with a few badly written plugins, but never with Photoshop. I always assumed that it happened because the plugin somehow altered the capture time, so the image that was returned to Lightroom had a different capture time than the one Lightroom sent. This would trigger the sort order change. Does this perhaps happen when you apply some third-party Photoshop plugin as part of your edits?
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Nick Harrison

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I have the very latest updates of both LR & Ps with no plugins what so ever.  Just the pure programmes/software.  Bizarrely it doesn't happen every time I edit an image or combined images/layers in Ps - so making it harder to track down a trigger for this issue
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No additional plugins for mine either, always keep CC updated. This has happened since I started with LR3, I just never figured it was only when Editing in Photoshop. Thought it happened when switching between "Develop" and "Library" modes occasionally too but I could be wrong. Images become mixed into a very random order.
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Nick Harrison

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Still happening - I would have thought Adobe would have sorted this by now.  Every time I edit is Photos the edited photo gets to the end of the set of images in the folder. Why is this happening ?
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Just to double check - have you confirmed the sort order is set to capture date, and not to custom order?

I can't replicate it either, and we're not seeing an influx of reports. Of course that doesn't mean it's not happening to you, but bugs that can't be reproduced are almost impossible to fix.
(Edited)
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I keep setting it to Capture Time after each Photos edit.  This setting is held indefinitely until I next edit in Photos, and then reverts to Custom Order.  I have had a rebuild of my Mac recently, fresh install of software, and it still happens
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Photos? As in the Mac Photos app, rather than Photoshop? How is the photo getting there?
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Nick Harrison

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All images are RAW, downloaded direct from my Nikon D750, into folders on my Mac.  I then import into Lr.  The Apple photos app does not feature in this process.  (iPhone photos are Airdropped into the same folder system and imported into Lr if and as required, but this is a rarity)
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Ok, I'm confused. You said "This setting is held indefinitely until I next edit in Photos, and then reverts to Custom Order." so could you clarify your steps please?
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Nick Harrison

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Sorry Ps autocorrected to Photos - I meant, every time I edit an image from Lightroom to Photoshop (Photos is an incorrect reference, sorry about that), then on saving the edited image in Photoshop this image shows up in Lightroom at the end of the set of photos in the relevant folder - not in the Capture Time order where the photo originated from 
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As I understand-When you 'send' a (raw) image to Photoshop by [Edit-In], Lightroom is creating a "new" pixel based document. The "Capture Date" for this new image is 'now', this current minute it gets created. The new image in Ps does not carry-over all the exif data from the originating raw file.Hence the way to view it next to the raw original is to set the sort order to "Filename".
Any file that is created 'now' must always appear at the end of a set of photos if sort order is "Capture Date".
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Nick Harrison

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I appreciate your logic. But after editing a photo in Photoshop and it is returned to Lightroom and the sort order is thereby changed to Custom Order, when I then choose Capture Time in Lightroom the edited photo from Photoshop then jumps back to the original place in the taken order of the unedited photo. So the issue is that when returning from Photoshop the photo is changing the view order in Lightroom (from Capture Time to Custom Order). Is this a bug in Lightroom. I can’t think of any other explanation
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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> The "Capture Date" for this new image is 'now', this current minute it gets created.

The file creation date is now, but the capture date remains the date of capture.

> So the issue is that when returning from Photoshop the photo is changing the view order in Lightroom (from Capture Time to Custom Order). Is this a bug in Lightroom.

It certainly sounds like a bug, but not being able to reproduce it is a problem. Any chance you can grab a video of your steps so we can figure out what we're doing differently?
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yes - please share a video. I am unable to reproduce the same at my end. It's possible we are using different steps to achieve the same that you are doing, and hence not seeing the 'bug'.

Thanks.
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Nick Harrison

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I have taken 2 rather shaky videos to demonstrate this intermittent problem (sometimes when a photo is edited in Photoshop it returns to its original position in the Capture Time location, and as in these videos, it returns to the end of the gallery i the Folder). There is no regular pattern as to when the photo returns to the original position or not.  I would add that this has been happening for several years now (long before I started to use Loupedeck, so that has no bearing on the problem).  The first video shows opening a photo (when the order is set to Capture Time) in Photoshop.  I then carried out some edits in Photoshop, and the second video shows the image saved and returning to Lightroom but at the end of the gallery (folder).  I hope that makes sense, and gives clues to the erratic and frustrating position change in the folder.  If you require screenshot of the Folder arrangement or any other aspect of this problem, let me know.  
(Edited)
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Nick Harrison

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Do the videos help give any clues as to why I am experiencing this intermittent issue ?
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Thanks for the video Nick - I have been trying the same at my end as well. Not still getting it to happen :(
If the issue happens next please share the files that you see them happening - analysing the date fields in the file could help us nail it.
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Will do, as soon as it happens again.  Although I have to say it is that random that it can happen next to a photo that was taken minutes apart and which returns to the correct (Time Order) place - it is a mystery to me
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The problem has just occurred again.  However I am not sure I can share the two RAW files I combined into a psd in Photoshop, as they are not accepted for uploading here (both size and format).  If I can send them any other way please let me know.  I have noticed that the Capture Time does jump to Custom Order from time to time and wonder if this is more of the problem.  I am trying to ascertain why this happens - it may be after exporting a set of images (I have just tested this option and export didn't seem to change the order this time), otherwise I cannot think of any other regular task that may effect the order - but will keep searching to see if there is an indication of why Capture Time changes to Custom Order
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Nick Harrison

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After much further thought I am wondering if I am looking at the problem in the wrong area.  Over the weekend I have monitored closely the sort order of the photos and have realised/discovered that the sort order is changing regularly - 8 times yesterday, twice the day before and 5 times the previous day.  So I am now wondering if this has nothing to do with editing in Photoshop as these changes in sort order are happening irrespective of image editing in Photoshop (in fact I have only used Photoshop a couple of times over the weekend).  So I have been trying to see a pattern of when the sort order changes (from Capture Time to Custom order).  There seems to be no regular action I am performing that triggers this change.  It is still very frustrating to deal with the sort order changing on a very regular basis.  I will continue to monitor closely to see if anything becomes obvious, which is hard as I am not doing anything unusual or out of the ordinary in the workflow.
I do wonder if Lightroom is so sensitive as to when I am picking images from the bottom film strip that this may trigger a change in order - seems unlikely but I cannot think of anything else that may be causing the problem
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Thank you, Nick, for keeping us posted on your investigations.

Are the image files of the same or different types? Are you editing any properties that could affect the underlying image file in the OS - or metadata? Is there some pattern on the order/kind of operations you perform on the image when you notice the change in sort order?

If you can specify a few of the operations you performed, I can have the same tried at my end as well. I know it is frustrating to see a behaviour that is wrong but cannot be explained. Again, thanks for your analysis, and keep us posted if you find anything.
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Nick Harrison

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The image types are all the same - Nikon NEF RAW files, from two D750's both with same camera settings - there does not appear to be any indication that the two sets of images cause a change in order.  In fact I have been keeping an eye on the change in order and I still cannot see a regular activity that triggers the change, but will continue to monitor closely, and will let you know if I see any kind of pattern.  Thanks for your help so far
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Anne Edgar

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same problem for many years, after many updates of both PS & LR, the problem persists.  I prefer the 'file name' sort order, and when I send a photo from LR to edit in PS -the image returns back to LR  at the end of the thumbnail list, even though the sort order was set to 'file name' when sent to  from LR to PS.  When returned back to LR the sort order is somehow changed to 'custom' .  I then have to reset the sort order back to 'file name' to continue on.  Happens about 60% of the time, I can't identify any reason why it happens randomly.  I know others who experience the same, and have seen other posts about this as well... no solutions though:(  It does not take long to reset the sort order, but when editing a wedding it does add a chunk of time I would LOVE to eliminate.  Anyone have a solution?
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This never happens to me, but there are two things I do that may influence this. First of all, I organise my images in collections only. Folders are irrelevant to me and my folder panel is collapsed 98% of the time. That means I will always edit in Photoshop from within a collection, never from within a folder. And secondly I checked to option to stack the resulting image with the raw file. Maybe this plays a role, maybe it’s just a coincidence, but the sort order remains (by filename) as it should be when I edit in Photoshop.
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Nick Harrison

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I have been incessantly trying to analyse why LR changes the sort order.  I cannot see a single reason, or pattern of any sort as to why this happens, both when sending photos to Photoshop, and also occurring randomly during use of Lightroom.  Clues are not even evident when the order randomly changes when moving between Grid and Develop modes.  So infuriating, and even more so - disruptive to my workflow (I never use collections - always use folders as I import from folders on Mac Finder.  Process the images and archive the catalogue - so I never have a large library connected to LR)
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Anne Edgar

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This is an issue than clearly only happens to a small number of LR / PS users.  In a conversation amongst our local wedding photographer community - about 3 or 4 out of +/- 30 people have experienced this ongoing problem.  So a small group - but 10% is not insignificant.  The biggest frustration is the fact that it seems so random ... while editing a wedding over the course of the last 20 minutes - I sent 3 of the LR images on to PS for added edits... 2 of the 3 returned back to LR with the sort order changed from 'file name' to 'custom' with the PS edit appearing at the end of the thumbnail list.  The 3rd of 3 returned back in the correct 'file name' sort.  There were no differences in how the files were sent to PS/ edited in PS / returned to LR.  The working solution when the image returns with the sort order changed is to select the image in the thumbnail list > switch from develop module to library > reset the sort order to file name > switch back to develop module > select the next image & carry on.  Five added clicks, about 3-4 seconds.  Not a big deal if I were only editing a handful of images.  But I edit 800-1500 per week, and so these extra -tedious & annoying- steps are repeated dozens to hundreds of times each week, times each month, times several years.  Boo.  (otherwise happy user:)
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Nick Harrison

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And some of us are editing 800+ images a day !  The additional unnecessary steps to maintain the status quo is not only bit frustrating but very costly.  And the sort order changes randomly at times other than when sending photos to Photoshop - there is no clear pattern
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I have had this same problem for a long time. It's random for me as well. I just edited one photo in PS and it came back still in Date Order. Then I edited a second photo in PS and it went to the end of the folder and the order was Custom Order. It doesn't happen frequently, but it is irritating when it does do it.
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I just now created a panorama from four images using the LR Photo Merge Panorama tool. It put the panorama at the end of the folder and I was in Custom Order. Strange.
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Sławomir Oleksy

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This has been happening to me since lightroom went CC, i.e., ,about 2 years. In my case the order gets changed to custom absolutely every time I round trip to an external editor (any editor, not just PS).  And it doesn't matter if I start the process from within a folder or a collection. Incredibly frustrating, especially since I am I neat freak and reorder the photos each time this happens. 
(Edited)
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Welp! This thread is 2 years old and it came first in my Google search on this issue. Apparently, it hasn't been resolved. Although I am running an older version of LR Classic. I noticed the issue when using my pen and tablet. It would happen almost every time. When I switched back to mouse it went it never happened. In my case, there seems to be a bug with my drawing tablet. Very strange! 
(Edited)
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Nick Harrison

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Interesting - it could be that Wacom software is contributing to the problem.  I don't have/use a mouse, so cannot compare, although the intermittent nature is becoming more frequent in my situation.  For Adobe not to take note of these problems, whether Wacom contributes or not, is a very frustrating and long standing irritation and hinderance to workflow 
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Anne Edgar

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eureka! I currently use a cintiq, previously a wacom tablet... so this all seems to align.  Now perhaps a solution?
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OK.  I have this problem regularly.  Based on the last few posts I tested (data points = 1) with and without Wacom Intuos 4 tablet.  With the single test the sort order changes when using the Wacom tablet.  When I turn off the tablet and perform the same operation the sort order does not change.  The specific operation I tested is HDR merge 3 images.  Although I didn't test it here, this problem occurs when going to and from PS.
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Nick Harrison

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What is mystifying is the inconsistency - the sort order can be maintained for several callouts to Photoshop, and then randomly scramble for a few callouts, and then behave.  Haven't used a mouse for nearly a decade so am reluctant to start due to this inconvenience.  I do wish Adobe would take it's customers seriously
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Do I have this workflow correct?

  1. Select Album with a custom sort order
  2. Select Three images to perform a Photo Merge - HDR (or is this a Send to Photoshop for HDR?)
Result: 

With Wacom - Sort Order Changes
Without Wacom - Sort Order is stable
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Anne Edgar

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Currently using cintique, previously using Wacom tablet:
1) in LR ( with sort order set to file name) select (single or multiple) image(s) to perform ANY edit in PS
2) complete PS edit, save
3) return to LR to find the image sort order changed from file name to custom, with the recently edited image located at the end of the thumbnail list.

This happens sporadically - more that 50% of the time - but certainly not every time.
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I wonder if this bug is related to having the view filter unlocked.  The lock is only supposed to affect filter settings, but I've seen anomalies in the past relating filter settings with sort order.

So try with File > Library Filters > Lock Filters checked and  > Remember Each Source's Filters Separately unchecked:

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@Anne  - is it necessary to use the Wacom device instead of a mouse/trackpad to perform the navigation or does it have to just be connected?
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Nick Harrison

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I have the library filters set as you describe Rikk and this problem still occurs as described by Anne.  I do not have a mouse, so cannot check the problem without the use of my Wacom.   But surely Lightroom should not be effected by a Wacom tablet, or at least I hope not ?
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John sent you the above filter advice.

I am unable to reproduce this either with a Wacom attached or without.  Sort order remains by File Name using either a Collection or a Folder. 

There has to be more to the story or a step that is missing. 
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dmeephd

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Come on!  Lightroom has been unable to remember a previous sort order since version 3!  I routinely have to reset the sort order after importing, switching modes, and using exernal editors.  This is nothing new, and nothing that Adobe has ever bothered to fix.
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Nick Harrison

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Leads one to surmise that Adobe are only interested in focusing their efforts where a financial return is expected (not considering that consequences of losing customers will be the result of their neglect in this respect !!)
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dmeephd

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Exactly!
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I have this same issue, and I've had it for as long as I've been using both LR & PS, about four years, maybe?
It is very frustrating if you are working on thousands of images, and you want to keep them in order, it makes me not want to take the photo into PS, because I already know that I'm going to have to go through the pain of getting each one back in its proper place.

I SO hope they fix this!