Strange lines with Smart Sharpen. How to solve it?

  • 1
  • Problem
  • Updated 2 months ago
  • (Edited)
Hi!

I'm using Smart Sharpen filter and it adds strange lines in some parts of the image, how can I solve it? It is very visible in the eye of the picture (please, clic on the image for full size).

Thanks a lot!




Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes

Posted 2 months ago

  • 1
Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1965 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
That looks like moire' interference pattern. The easiest way to fix this is to use the adjustment brush in Camera Raw of Lightroom with the Moire' setting checked. However this will only work for RGB images. Do you have the original color image file?
(Edited)
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
That image looks like a newsprint photo, and my experience has been that one cannot sharpen an image comprised of black dots as there are no "edges" upon which Photoshop can work.

Also, I have never gotten good results pushing Smart Sharpen to 400%. I question the Radius setting which looks like 0.8 pixels! (I am assuming that the comma in that number is from European use...)  I have tried restoring very old photos that were actually faded newspaper clippings, with unsatisfactory results; so, IF I am correct that this is a newspaper clipping, the only idea that I would have is to do exactly what Todd Shaner has suggested: paint in the corrections. Then you could make sure that you do not show this to anybody at 200% as is in your screen shot.

Todd: do you think that might be newsprint also? Dave Grainger
Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Hi!

The image is a scan from a black and white negative (Kodak TRIX 400) and is scanned as RBG 16bits. I tried Moire reduction with Camera raw but it doesn't solve the problem. It is something about the settings of the Smart Sharpen? I have try different ammount and radius and it still happen. Do I need to set up something in the Photoshop Preferences?
(Edited)
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
TRI-X was a very grainy film. Your problem is that grain, and it is unlikely that, even by using a higher resolution scanner, that you could do anything about it. (All you would get would be higher resolution  black dots.)

It is POSSIBLE that one of the Topaz AI filters MIGHT be able to "fill in the dots " for you.
Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1965 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
"The image is a scan from a black and white negative (Kodak TRIX 400) and is scanned as RBG 16bits."

I did some research and this appears to be "grain aliasing." Setting your scanner to it's highest optical resolution the first thing you should try. Next I suggest using Camera Raw plugin and use the Detail panel to apply sharpening and noise reduction. This will create a new file, which may be easier than using Reduce Noise and Smart Sharpen. Either way you need to apply noise reduction as your first step. See if that helps. What scanner model are you using and what resolution (ppi) did you scan at?


https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/is-this-moir%C3%A9-pattern-on-some-of-my-scans.5511672/
Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Hi!

This is a 100% croop of the image without the sharpening. I'm scaning with an Epson V850 at 3200 resolution.


Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1965 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
The Epson V850 has an optical resolution of 6400 dpi, but the actual "effective" resolution is less than 3200 dpi so no real benefit of scanning at a higher resolution. If you can post the original scan file with no adjustments to Dropbox or other file sharing site I'll see if I can figure out what the issue is with Smart Sharpen.
Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I am thinking that the problem is in my scanner, I did several scans with different resolutions, USM auto, no USM and custom USM and I see that this appears in the scan... Have you seen something like this? What do you think that it's happening?
You can download all images here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/or9jdarb4ehkgky/scan%20lines.zip?dl=0

Thanks a lot!
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
I think you are overlooking the grain introduced by using TRI-X 400 film. You simply cannot scan a grainy image and have the grain disappear.

I  also suggest that you pay attention to Todd Shaner, who is very knowledgeable.
(Edited)
Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Hi Dave,

I know very well this film and I know that this film have grain, the issue that I have is that in the darkest part of the image it appears a strange vertical lines (Do you see the pattern? In fact is very different than the film grain), maybe this image is more clear. Of course you can see the grain in the skin of the woman.


Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
Sure, I see the lines. I suspect that is an artifact of the effort that Photoshop made to sharpen, which it could not do right because of the grain. Take a look below at my experiment...
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
I bought Neat Image after reading the contents of  a link about the subject, and wound up with the attached result. This is, of course with the little 72 PPI image Ignacio posted: I suspect that results would be much better with a 300 PPI image from the scanner and not the one reduced for posting.

I purchased Neat Image Pro 64bit for Windows, downloaded it and restarted Photoshop after doing the installation.

I loaded the image Ignacio posted, the cropped one, into Photoshop, changed it from Greyscale Mode to RGB, then ran Neat Image.  I then ran Topaz Detail 3 and also sharpened at 95%. Not bad at all, considering the horrific grain that was there when we started!
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
Ignacio: how does this look to you?  If that procedure was to be run with the full 300 PPI image, I think that it would be even better. I did the sharpening pass just to see whether that would reintroduce those lines, but it did not. Pretty face made prettier by scrubbing out the grain! (I did also change the image to 300 PPI after all these steps, also to see what would happen.)

Perhaps Adobe could acquire Neat Image and incorporate it in Photoshop?  Just thinking...
(Edited)
Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1965 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
Ignacio, the files without USM applied do NOT show the vertical line artifacts even at very high sharpening settings. The lines around the eye are only visible in the uploaded image files with USM applied in the scanner software. Please provide a screenshot of the scanner software USM settings you are using. They are probably way too high!
Photo of Dave Grainger

Dave Grainger

  • 442 Posts
  • 82 Reply Likes
Aha! So, it was the scanner software unsharp mask that was the culprit and NOT Photoshop! Makes sense...
Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1965 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
The scans appear out of focus, which may be why you are using such high USM settings. The Epson v850 film holders have height regulators, which you can adjust to improve the scanner's lens focus.

https://epson.com/faq/SPT_B11B224201~faq-269341?faq_cat=faq-topFaqs
Photo of Ignacio Navas

Ignacio Navas

  • 6 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Hi Guys!

After some research, and some test with a friend's scanner (for discard that it was a problem of my scanner), I discovered what was happening, and it was that whe scanner was doing some interpolation in the image so this creates this strange pattern that it is really visible when you apply any sharpen process and you zoom in.

If you take the image that was scan at 4800 (no usm in silverfast) and you add a smart sharpen filter in photoshop, you will see the eye's lines in a very strong way. If you take the 3200 image it will happen the same but not too obvious.

So finally, the solution was to scan at 2400 with no USM at scan, smart sharpen after scan in Photoshop, and avoid any kind of interpolation.

Thanks a lot!
Photo of Todd Shaner

Todd Shaner, Champion

  • 1961 Posts
  • 664 Reply Likes
So finally, the solution was to scan at 2400 with no USM at scan, smart sharpen after scan in Photoshop, and avoid any kind of interpolation.
EDITED: You've got an issue with your scanner or the scanner software. It should work fine at 3200 dpi, which provides the maximum "optical resolution" as per test reports. To rule out the scanner as the cause of the artifacts try the EpsonScan software that came with the scanner at 3200 dpi. You could also try the free Vuescan trial at the below link. It provides higher image resolution with my similar Canonscan 9000F film scans.  If they both produce the same artifacts at 3200 dpi then you have a scanner issue and I suggest contacting Epson Tech Support for help.

https://www.hamrick.com/
(Edited)