Elements 2019: HEIF/HEVC - Not supported in Windows? Someday?

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So it's my understanding that PSE 2019 doesn't support HEIF/HEVC in Windows.  Wow!  That's actually kind of shocking.

I would like to move my jpg images over to these new formats but wouldn't be able to edit them at all with PSE or PRE.

Seems like a gross oversight, since Windows itself does support these formats through recently released Microsoft codecs.

Any potential timeline for PSE to support these formats (before 2020)?
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Springs System

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Posted 2 months ago

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Steve Lehman

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Hello Springs System:   

Adobe Premier has HEIF as a container for MPEG codecs as storage for MPEG compressed files.   HEVC is the standard that specifies storage for intra coded images.  These two formats were only containers of MPEG in various formats, and may no longer be needed in certain circumstances. 

Also, there are no release dates for Premier 2019 and with our strict non-disclosure agreeement in forums and among employees, there cannot be a release date given.   Although there was a rumor about an October 13-17 release for a CC program from Adobe, that may not pertain to Elements, and whether it would be with or without Premier.  

Steve Lehman, mcse



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Michel BRETECHER, Champion

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https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2543008
There is support for Importing and editing those formats in PSE and PE2019 for Mac users.
https://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop-elements/features.html

Anyway, saving jpegs to HEIC has only drawbacks and no advantage.
How many Windows users do you think are interested now?


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Steve Lehman

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Hi there Michel, 

HEIC, HEVC are in Adobe, whether found or not.  These are containers for MPEG,  used for portability of an MPEG file format used for display and websites.   HEIC and HEVC have a place in my list of file formats ('video formats').   In Adobe products, they may still exist there later for convenience, but there are other video formats.   

You mentioned JPG, it's used in image editing.  Thanks for the feedback.  Good research.   You are great at referencing.   



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Springs System

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What about HEIC?  It's the format used by Apple iPhones.  Still seems like PSE should be able to edit and save still images produced by the iPhone.
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Michel BRETECHER, Champion

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Steve Lehman

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Michel, you did it again.  Good link!  I'm a Windows engineer - I know formats but not iOS and iphone.  I have Android. I'm out.   
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Michel BRETECHER, Champion

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It's a bit strange that the tech doc has been issued just after the launch, before users have time to check the feature. 
Do you remember the fuss about the jpeg 2000 format? Much smarter than jpeg, but it did not succeed. 
Maybe the new 'advanced' format will do it now that Apple offers that option in their new phones.   As far as I know, no camera offers the format.  As an engineer, you'll certainly will find discussions about it, it's a very smart technical achievement which is a real challenge for software editors if they want to go farther than simple conversion to tiff or existing formats.
You'll also find a  number of posts about it in the present forum.
While it's obvious that a number Apple users will want to show that they are ahead of everybody with novelties, most users, not only Win ones, will wait before making the plunge.
- Similar competiting new formats might be available
- HEIF is mainly seen as good in quality and compression, but raw is superior in quality and compression is less a problem today.
- Sharing: if I had friends wanting to send me HEIF, I would require them to send jpegs or to host raws or tiffs on the Web.
- Archiving:  Will the format stay long enough? Remember the organizer did drop the jpeg 2000 format support very soon.
- Converting a jpeg library to HEIF? No quality advantage, very slightly more compression and risks for the future?




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Steve Lehman

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This is an interesting situation:   The iPhone makers adopted this format container only because it was available, not really used anymore.  It's considered by engineers as being old and stupid.  So Apple used it in their phones.  But remember it's only a container-format for other formats, originally utilized for JPG compression to compress more than the 80% and this was only to save disc space.  The JPEG-2000 was a 90% compression.   It didn't serve a purpose on the social sites because they couldn't model a picture for their site big enough without blurring pixel problems.  They dumped it, and then wrote strict guidelines for their pictures, hard to follow and they ended up copying the old passport photo guidelines but making the photo even smaller.   For the passport photo problem, Canada was really angry because their passport photo guide is much different than ours, and their social sites for Canada had a different guide for photos.  (they needed to show the shoulders to the elbows, but the USA doesn't need that)   Apple only took the HEIF/HEVC containers because it was available.  I don't think its iPhone users will brag about it being a new thing for them, as they will have more problems with it, not being a real pro and knowing how to use it.  Instead of JPG, Apple will utilize it as a RAW format container and a transport container to Photoshop to enlarge a photo or to remove it from the container and make it into a RAW format.  (in iPhone it'll be the "high quality photo" setting, in cameras it'll be the camera maker's RAW format).   Also remember that iPhone and camera makers always want another way to compress RAW to save space, and users of iPhone's are begging for RAW or uncompressed photos to share with Photoshop.  Now also remember that RAW from a camera or phone is always compressed in 16 bit files to save space.   Container formats are indeed needed for that, but the iPhone maker need to make those files 8 bit file in the container format, for what they will need for Photoshop.  The iPhone users will need to convert their RAW 16 bit files to 8 bit in order to print.  Printers will always reject a 16 bit file and in Photoshop it will send an error message about it, and then a converter behind that, asking if they want to convert their 16 bit file to 8 bit before it prints.  First, this is the print driver throwing the error message.  Second, Photoshop is sending the converter.   So iPhone users will need to become pro's to use this method.    Otherwise, we will get lots of people asking for a "how-to".   I guess we need to write one.   After this learning stage, I can't see how any of them will brag about their 'new' container format.  

Steve Lehman, mcse



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Springs System

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Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.  As a technical novice, there's  a lot to chew on here.  Looks like I'll be sticking with jpg & raw for the foreseeable future.
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Steve Lehman

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Postscript:  

I don't usually teach technology but I know Michel could use this info, and Springs System, you might find this informative.  I have some definitions you may need to read about.   

HEIF (High Efficiency Image File) compressed image container standardized by MPEG ISO media files.   

HEVC (High Efficiency Video Coding) intra-coded media specifically stored in HEIF container formats.   It's the new successor to Advanced Video Coding (AVC,or "H.264") one compression scheme used by Blu-ray.   

Better yet for Michel:  

BPG (Better Portable Graphics) a new format replaces JPEG format when quality or file size is an issue.   Its main advantages are a higher compression ratio. Files are much smaller than JPEG for similar quality.   

These are in my list of file formats at our company site.  http://pixsavers.com/photoformats.html
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Hi guys!
Sorry, I'm about just Ps, not PsE, but same way.
I just need extract mask from heif, but absolutely don't care on other fitchers. Why not add support only for this?
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Steve Lehman

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Because HEIF is a container for your videos, and while videos can be uncompressed inside this container, this contain will compress its file with the video inside, taking lesser space. So it continues to be used although many think it's taboo, it comes in handy.  
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Milk_Dream

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Thanks for response! Ok, I understand. But I think and still search to easy way use depth mask in this container on windows. I photos on iPhone 7 Plus in portrait mode- I absolutly understand what is little drop in other things, pro things and etc., but qualitiy on this phone very good, but quality to create a mask not perfect always and need to be edited :) Maybe you know other way...?
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Steve Lehman

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Milk Dream,   

think your real problem is that your'e trying to convert phone memory from a cell phone, not a vid-cam or digital cam.  Images with a phone is too low in resolution (11 dpi).   A container might work for the vids sure, but then what happens if the phone is programmed to reduce resolution for everything including the image inside the container.  So primarily the container should work to reduce resolution without reducing the video and that's what your'e seeking.  But you are handling video with a phone - not a real video camera which doesn't have the same programming.   When it comes to phones, I stay away from images from them because they are programmed to be tiny as some of them will use a container but they will end up reducing the containers content.  They look good on a phone, but by rule they are setup for social sites which require very small photos WE call "passport" photos.  Professionals do everything right by using real cameras so we can work with images and vids.  I think it's your phone programming, making fuzzy images with low res.    

Now let's tell you about digital cameras before I go into a narrative about phones.  A real digital camera will utilize its own native file format for its photos as RAW photos, uncompressed and they don't need a container.  This is why I once questioned whether you needed a container, as they have not been used for a while.   For example, Nikon uses NEF files for RAW.  Canon utilizes CRW or CR2 files as RAW, and each of these are uncompressed photo files can be sent to Photoshop, no container needed, even vids - because their resolution is far above "phone res".   Maybe your phone still uses containers but you wouldn't need them if you knew the different file formats to use instead.  From my company, see my list of file formats at this link http://www.pixsavers.com/photoformats.html but notice the camera file formats.  We listed them for pros who need references per each camera because each brand of camera has their own RAW file.  IF you have a digital camera you'd rather use, you can convert RAW file to Photoshop, then change them to TIFF (and convert them to 8 bit later for printing) with a DNG converter which Adobe made just for you.  I note here that digital cameras like phone also compress their files to 16 bit (which is probably your resolution problem) and you need 8 bit files for printers otherwise, ALL print drivers will reject the print.  A printer will not take a 16 bit file, but Photoshop WILL convert 16 bit 8 bit on its way to the printer.   Just wait for its error message and its converter pops up right after.    

NOW this is what a phone does with its memory:  
It is programmed to reduce everything in its memory to save resources.  If you try to expand a photo to its normal size before its transfer to Photoshop, it will take too much memory.   Phones are programmed to use its memory power to make calls.  That's what they do primarily and foremost as they devote all their memory to the phone call.  It needs MORE memory than your photo space allocation.  When making a call it needs to transmit its own serial number, the cell tower's serial number in a digital interchange (handshake), then the phone number is sent, then the phone number you are calling is sent.  All of this happens in 1/10th of a second so you don't notice but it needs ALL of its memory power to make this call with only 6/10th of 1 watt output (note that early CB radios had 5 watts output) and it has only this small energy because there are groups of people who argue that radio waves scrabble the brain and causes cancer which cannot be true, as radio waves are only static magnetic negative-ion energy which bounces off the ionosphere which also has negative-ions.  (for the cancer problem, if you could "see" radio waves, we would be enveloped in them, always).  So with this action, it reduces anything that is not a phone call, as its memory shrinks everything you hoped to send to Photoshop , and it does this according to its protocol (set of rules) just to make that phone call.   So if you thought you had a container with its RAW content, then you made a call, it reduced everything included the container's content, to a very low resolution to make that phone call.  The phone doesn't care if you have a video to process.  

I know about cell phones because when I began as an engineer (200 years ago) , I wasn't yet a software engineer while at a University.   At first I was an electronic engineer (since 18 years old) with a Class-E FCC electronic radio/telegraph engineering license as I was a "genius" in electronics at the time but at 41 I was assigned to build computers at the base of each cell tower for Cellular One Corporation, which there was not a lot of cell towers at the time but I had (the first) clunky cell phone to test them as I appeared as a VIP in my car most of the time.  Cellular One was a Seattle based cell phone company.  Still the towers use the same operation at the base of each cell tower, as a computer processes calls.  We programmed them into the same phone company automated analog call system but with automated call switching, using radio frequencies, and those were later reprogrammed as digital systems in mainframes.  Still today, during the call, as it processes, the computer "finds" a radio frequency to send your signal and it might change frequencies as the tower becomes busy.   Then as you travel that cell tower hands off the same call to another frequency at another cell tower.  And, along the way it finds smaller cell towers working as "repeater stations".   At first, inside the cell tower we built them with a double-rack of Windows based (Dell) PC's in a circle which the FCC approved.  That was replaced by a mainframe in the center with the same FCC approval.  Whenever the system memory was too small for many calls, we had to go back to replace memory and so forth.  Again this reverts back to memory allocation.   Whenever TV stations used these towers we needed more memory for that too.   Most remote TV station trucks utilized cell phones to shoot their pictures before they used microwave dishes.  This was before the FCC allow communications above 900 megahertz, at the time was being utilized as microwave transmissions.   (Super High Frequency (SHF on ham radios).   This frequency range was reserved for astronaut communications but since it was NOT being utilized, TV stations applied for it, argued and finally got the same frequency range for their microwave transmissions.  This was good for us as they wouldn't dominate the cell towers.  As for the cell phone towers, we utilized an old system network (ISDN) from the ship-to-shore Navy radio-operators when calls were converted to land lines.  This was the same for early-day car phones where the operator would come on the phone and ask for a number to dial.  Executives in a sports cars had a radio with a mic-switch, that's all but they "appeared" like a VIP.  The operator placed the call on the switchboard into a modem much like we use today, and the call would go out to the car-phone.  

The point of all of this is, with all of this processing, we need more memory on phones than what could be placed inside of them.  So the entire system couldn't work unless the memory was tiny and could use lots of data.   The computer operating system worked but the computers needed to be replaced constantly with more memory (like your phone).  That memory was manufactured for phones and then computers got that same type of printed circuit board as memory chips but they got that later on.   

In phones, memory is the only resource which the phone needs to rely upon, so your phone will reduce photo allocation, making your video tiny as the only pictures you will see normally will be on your phone screen, but put that same image onto a real computer screen, resolution works against you.   

One more system example:  In my digital lab I scan slides whose physical size is 1.34 X 0.84 inches.  I scan them at 1000 to 3000 dpi resolution which will give me a normal sized photo for photo prints or slide shows.  That resolution is the same as a 4X6 inch photo at 300 dpi resolution.   But if I made that slide at natural size and at the same resolution according to your phone's protocol, your phone's programming will make that slide 11 dpi in resolution which would will be 1 cm X 1 cm - too tiny to see.  

I think your container idea is good but it works with RAW from real cameras, not phones.   I think iphones and Androids alike won't work with a container without reducing its container-content as well.  And I make the word, "think" in italic because my thoughts are in one direction.  Memory.   Sorry for the long text.  Hope its history was interesting.   

SL   


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Steve Lehman

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Another way?  For phones I'm not sure, with their protocol, if one will work, or if there is a container that works with a phone.  Perhaps everyone needs a java-proforma written for its conversion from phone-size to real size AND real size to phone size. 

Gee I have an idea, maybe the phone manufacturers can stop and think about how program RAW phone photo files or uncompressed photo size for their phones.  But if they did, they would also need a converter to make the photos good for Photoshop.  Like digital cameras, the phone RAW would be their own phone native file format.

Also remember, phone memory is really made for social sites sized photos, not for professional photos and school-pics.  If you worked for Facebook you would be advocating phone memory.   Maybe you should write to phone manufacturers or to Facebook to get them to make something just for phones.  But don't expect a lot, they deal only with social sites, as these days, each company has resorted to selling only one specialty item.  Phone memory is tiny although you think of them as having lots of power with images, most of that power is in the apps (networked) which doesn't live in phone memory.      

The same goes with the other way around.  If I utilized a real camera photo for a social site, I would have a real problem of trying to get its resolution below a certain size for a social site.  I did that for my wife.   It took me 12 minutes before I got it to a tiny size and resolution, compared to a real photo.   The problem was reducing the real photo resolution.   

SL   
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Milk_Dream

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Wow. Cool. Thanks for expanded answer! You coms long way and receive a lot experience!
I got from you really a lot of useful informations. But, I can't agree with all things you say.
I learn photography and other things around photoghraphy about 10 years. And I trying to say privius post what I understand all sirious things about photography and thecnical aspects. But. I got long way in retouch image and can do difirent things with portraits all qualities. And I no say about serious or pro things! But, how you say, all image frome phone typicaly do for social media- even small good retouch need for people. And iPhone can allow me to do it! And all I wont it's extract depth mask! :)
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Steve Lehman

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Write to Adobe but be specific with what  you need.  Answer all these questions specifically and put those answers in your letter - do you use it for video or still shots, restoration or whatever.  Don't state the obvious, state the technical aspects and tell them what you need to use and what for.   If you;re using an app on your phone, tell them what it's lacking and how and what you used before.  If you're used to using a container format, tell them the phone app is lacking thisTry to find a work-around and tell them how you have this difficulty of working around something but not getting what was available before.   This is how to get your app updated without having to buy a whole new app.   Good luck with that.   

SL