Elements: A way to change the UI colors

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  • Idea
  • Updated 8 years ago
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  • (Edited)
Is there a way to change the Photoshop CS5 and Elements 9 user interface and application colors? With the black and dark grey colors it is extremely difficult to use. Earlier versions like Photoshop CS4 and Elements 5 have a much cleaner user interface and background colors that is so much easier to see and use. Please help, I'm going blind trying to see dark gray on black.
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Sharon G

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  • going blind

Posted 9 years ago

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Braunsky

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If Adobe thinks only 48 people have complained about the miserable interface they are mistaken. I have seen many comments on other boards and blogs. How much bad press, bad word of mouth, and erosion of market share will 1% of your customers cause? I'd guess an exponential erosion. The poor souls who have posted here are those with a big enough problem to spend precious leisure time venting and suggesting. Because of their investment in past versions of PSE, people will put up with many bad new features and fixes of problems that do not exist for a long time before bailing. This thread concerns a very bad improvement. IE, the older versions had too much contrast, the colors were too bright, and it was just too damn easy to read! I tried to use PSE9, but I've actually stopped working with it because of the interface issues dealt with here. I'm using my creaky old PSE 2 for God's sake to generate segments, and will try to incorporate them in a PSE 9 project. I wasted 100 hours of effort trying to import old projects. I wasted another 50 hours after installing the full Photoshop creative suite trial version only to have it completely trash my new PSE9 projects. Adobe technical support at all levels refused to comment, much less assist in recovering my PSE9 projects, giving the Kafkaesque explanation that Adobe doesn't support its trial versions. I tried to explain that I was seriously considering buying the suite, and that Adobe should accept some responsibility for downloading a black hole onto my computer. Amazing.
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chris whitaker

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I am glad I found this as I was about to upgrade my old Photoshop V6 and have just loaded a copy of Elements 8 to find the grey on grey interface and am horrified to think I could have lashed out for the latest CS5 and have found the same interface.
Looks as though I shall keep PS6.
Keep my fingers crossed for a decent upgrade soon
Chrisipj
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PECourtejoie, Champion

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CS5 does not have a dark grey interface. Did you look at the product pages?
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Len Welch

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Would you please post some illustration of what you're talking about?
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Vince37mr

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If you have a decent internet connection you could download (920MB) CS5 as an upgrade and 'Try' it for 30 days.
The Try price seems to be 20% discount offer if you take it up.
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VA_Granddaddy

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I've been away from Adobe for a few years and I'm amazed this topic is still being discussed. Photoshop Elements 6 was the last version I bought. I do use PE6 for a few of its useful tricks. But I switched to other software that has readable interfaces. I've noticed the trend to unreadability not only in software but also in magazines. Some years ago designers seem to have decided that dark print on a darker background was somehow clever. I view it as a symptom of the new Dark Ages. People have forgotten how to design readable interfaces and have actually forgotten that readable interfaces were once the norm. If Adobe ever fixes this problem, I'll take another look at PE. 1/16/2012
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Vince37mr

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I agree about a general trend to poor readability all over the place. Grey on white, pale blue on white, beige on white, green on grey etc. It seems as if there are too many 25 year olds with 20-20 vision and giant screens in darkened rooms designing this stuff. Gmail's 'new look' has well-nigh invisible checkboxes,
Even this site comment and good point links are grey on white which is difficult to read until mouse over goes to black on white. You need to read the stuff BEFORE you select it, not after.
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Jerry Swick

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I just upgraded from Elements 5 to Elements 10 and I really hate the dark UI.Can't believe Adobe did something this dumb.
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Vince37mr

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You might get your money back if you act fast enough, then you can revert to PSE5. You could cite Usability on assorted government recommendations for screen readability guidelines. Search this thread for 'Civil rights' (no quotes) for previous comments about the US and UK.
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Vince37mr

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Just as an experiment I downloaded CS5 tryout on a Windows 7 32bit system.. It has a mid to light grey menu bar etc, but I couldn't change it even though the preferences seem to allow it. This also goes for the font which seems very slightly larger than I remember from my PSE10 tryout. But it's not acceptable for me and anyway, I certainly wouldn't consider CS at any price at the moment..
There also might be a UI bug in CS5 with Windows 7 classic theme. See http://forums.adobe.com/thread/629726
It really seems as if Adobe have totally screwed up the UIs of both CS and PSE as new releases have appeared. They should go back to the drawing board and stick with the Windows conventions for all theme options for the UIs

Incidentally, for the determined CS user it is sometimes possible to find a genuine copy of CS2 or 3 at a price that plus the CS5 discounted upgrade is way below the CS5 retail price.
I'm sure it is perfectly legal to transfer ownership of a product to a new user or computer, providing the original is uninstalled/disabled. So if someone has no more use for CS2 etc. it can legally be sold.
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PECourtejoie, Champion

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I think that most users from this thread will rejoice at the view of this official Photoshop CS6 sneak peek by Bryan O'Neil Hughes that shows 4 levels of brightness for the interface, allowing to match with Lightroom and video apps, as well as a lighter theme, for those working on print: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBIf9K...

Unfortunately, current regulations (Sorbane Oxley) and time needed would not allow for integration in current shipping apps.
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Vince37mr

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The toolbar font and tool icons are still too small.
When will Adobe realize that it's not just colour, but the SIZE of font that makes their products so unacceptable now. They must stop this pixel based font etc. The latest hi-res screens just make the products well nigh unusable. Much earlier in this thread (now hidden) I discussed the resolution capabilities of the eye but it seems that Adobe don't understand the subject.
.
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Adrienne Adams

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@Vince, that's EXACTLY the problem! Adobe is still using 9pt type for its interfaces, and tiny icons and toolbars to match... as though we are still all using 14" CRT monitors! And because Adobe doesn't use OS type hinting the text is horribly pixelated, with horrible letter spacing, on Mac OS X. Native Mac apps like iWork and iLife are vastly more enjoyable to use, even though some of them don't yet offer the option of large UI.
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Barbara L

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I have also repeatedly said this about PSE in this forum. The size of the fonts is as big a problem as the dark interface. In my high resolution monitor, if I hover my mouse over a tool, the text that pops up is basically unreadable unless my eyes are about a foot away. The tools are too small and the little triangle in the lower R. corner is barely visible. Menu items across the top are also too small, especially the adjustments for the tools fonts.
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Chris Cox

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>>> And because Adobe doesn't use OS type hinting the text is horribly pixelated, with horrible letter spacing, on Mac OS X.

That is incorrect - the UI is rendered entirely with OS type rendering (and all the problems of the OS type rendering).

And Photoshop already does allow you to change the size of the UI typeface in preferences.
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Adrienne Adams

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PSE does not allow the user to change UI font size.
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Adrienne Adams

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It's so interesting that Adobe employees reply immediately to any comment in order to correct us, but never respond to the subject at hand—namely the horrible, unreadable user interface of PSE.

Here's a screenshot (enlarge for full glory) comparing Adobe's and OS X's help applications. Notice the poor type rendering of Adobe's app. Note, also, that OS X allows one to easily increase the font size of the Help application, something that is not available to the poor sod trying to use Adobe's product:

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Chris Cox

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There are laws limiting what we can say about unannounced features and versions of software. We've already said quite a bit in this topic, and don't have much more we can say other than correcting mistakes.

You're not showing Photoshop or Elements, you're showing the community help application. That's a web browser inside an AIR application. Part of the text is OS rendered, and part is Flash rendered. If your complaints are about the community help application, please be more specific so we can direct the feedback to that team.

Again, Photoshop already allows you to change the type size, and renders it's UI with the OS type engine.

And I didn't say PSE, I said Photoshop.
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Adrienne Adams

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Here's another screenshot (enlarge for full glory) comparing Photoshop and Pages icons. Notice Pages' big, bright icons and Photoshop's tiny, gray ones. I have an enormous 27" monitor, and I'm supposed to squint at these tiny little gray-on-gray Adobe icons?

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Chris Cox

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@Len - That could mean anything. It could mean that the user exaggerates, it could mean that they don't like the dark colors in Elements, that they have trouble with their vision, that they have a display too dense for them to see normal controls, etc. That's why we need specifics. Other users have been specific about the issues, and we've said that we're working on it.

We do care about visiblity of the UI, but we can't respond to generic complaints without any specific details about what is going on. And complaints about a lack of features that already exist, or about non-problems, really don't help.

Then asking for things that are counter productive (like bright colored icons), well, that's not helping either. But people may not understand why it's a horribly bad idea, so I need to explain from the perspective of someone who studies user interfaces and human vision.

Adobe's been using a cross platform UI all along - the topic being discussed here has absolutely nothing to do with that. Please stop trying to guess the causes and just tell us what the specific problems are.

Yes, Photoshop and PSE can offer more UI customization -- but please, keep it on topic, and keep the requests/complaints specific so we can actually act on them.
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Dan Smith

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The Liquify tool icons in pse 10 are but one example i could post.
Can anyone really see those tool icons clearly?

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Chris Cox

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Dan - Yes, most of those are too low contrast to be visible, even with 20/20 vision. That's the sort of specific examples that the designers need to hear about.
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Barbara L

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If I knew how to post a picture on this board I would. I can do a print screen and then copy but it won't paste. I could then show you how PSE8 looks on my monitor. Hovering over the tools and various commands brings up a teeny tiny text that is nearly unreadable.
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Chris Cox

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Even if you pasted it - it would show up at the resolution of the viewer's display.
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Adrienne Adams

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Mr. Cox,

Your response above is quite enlightening.

"It could mean that the user exaggerates,"
Translation: "The user's experience is unreliable, which isn't our problem."

"[I]t could mean that they don't like the dark colors in Elements,"
Translation: "It's a matter of the user's taste, which isn't our problem."

"[T]hat they have trouble with their vision,"
Translation: "The user's eyes are bad, which isn't our problem."

"[T]hat they have a display too dense for them to see normal controls, etc."
What on earth does this mean? "Too dense?" "normal controls?"

"That's why we need specifics. Other users have been specific about the issues, and we've said that we're working on it."
I'm very happy to provide specifics. I will do so in a separate post.

"We do care about visiblity of the UI, but we can't respond to generic complaints without any specific details about what is going on."
Most of these post have been quite specific. Again, I will provide more specifics on my own "complaints" in a separate post.

"And complaints about a lack of features that already exist,"
Translation: "You can increase the text size, except when you can't."

"[O]r about non-problems, really don't help."
Translation: "We don't think your problem is a problem, so please stop bothering us."

"Then asking for things that are counter productive (like bright colored icons), well, that's not helping either."
I am not "asking" for brightly colored icons. I was contrasting the resolution and visibility of icons in Photoshop and another application. I apologize for providing an example that could be misinterpreted as a feature request, and for not being helpful.

"But people may not understand why it's a horribly bad idea, so I need to explain from the perspective of someone who studies user interfaces and human vision."
I am glad that you study user interfaces. I would be very interested to see references to interface design guidelines that indicate that colored icons are a "horribly bad idea."

Mr. Cox, as you also study human vision, you are doubtless aware that "the retina of a typical 60-year-old receives only about one-third of the light that the retina of a typical 20-year-old receives;" and "that [visual] acuity among healthy older adults (but not younger adults) drops precipitously for low luminance and/or low contrast stimuli." (References available upon request.)

As a layperson, I would conclude that these facts indicate that older people don't see as well as younger people. People who are not old might also have trouble seeing things well. There is a possibility that some of these people might, actually, have difficulty with using Photoshop and/or Photoshop Elements due to the design of the user interface.
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Chris Cox

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You have already gotten somewhere - PLEASE read the official response at the top of this topic (that was answered 9 months ago).
And all I've been doing is correcting mistakes and asking for more specific, useful input. How is that defensive?
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halmo1927

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I read the "official response" several times, including tonight. All it tells me is that Adobe hasn't fixed this problem in 9 months, hasn't given us any firm commitment to do anything, and released a new PSE version during that time. And how about a response from the Project Manager? As to "defensive," I don't have time or inclination to go back through old posts to defend that description other than to say that suggestions to calibrate our monitors, for example, has to be defensive as it does nothing to correct the fundamental problem of nearly unreadable gray on dark gray text like the Reset Panels, Undo, Redo, etc area of PSE 9, for example.

.
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Chris Cox

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The response says that we heard the feedback and are taking it into consideration. That's all we can legally say.

PSE10 didn't have time to overhaul their UI after hearing about the problem -- that's not something that can just change overnight.
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didi

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Ten months time isn't enough? Sounds like socialist Russia...
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Jonathan Graef

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This stuff doesn't just happen overnight. Give Adobe some time.

That said, y'all had better be working on this...
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Chris Cox

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> "[T]hat they have a display too dense for them to see normal controls, etc."

Means that they might have a 300 dpi display that no current applications are going to be visible on.

Face it - most of these reports are severely lacking in detail.

Plus, you're trying to read a lot of things into my response that I didn't write, and didn't intend.

Yes, I am well aware of the way vision changes as we age. (painfully so before I put on my glasses in the morning)
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Linda Minton

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Thank you, Adrienne, for a sharp and comprehensive answer to a rather typical PS Employee-attitude response. Although it MAY be the case that Adobe is planning on fixing this egregious programming error, it never ceases to amaze me that many of their employees seem to have this rather superior and condescending attitude. Reading between the lines is not difficult when the writer is so transparent.
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Chris Cox

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@Linda - stop trying to read between the lines, you're finding things that don't exist.
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Vince37mr

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In recent replies and comments the water has become somewhat muddied between UI colours and fonts.
Readability is a combination of both font style and size and background and foreground colours.
Ideally all four variables should be adjustable in a user-friendly product, like
Now somewhere squirrelled away in the installation files for PSE and CS are the fonts, tool icons and colours used in the UI. Surely it can't be that difficult for Adobe to pull them out and change them?
I'd like font to use Tahoma size 12 (Using Windows size which may be different from points, and Tahoma because I think it was the XP desktop default). Use white text on dark grey or black on pale grey . That shouldn't be so difficult.

I think this topic has probably now been exhausted and that we'll just have to wait and see what happens - Presumably PSE11
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Vince37mr

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The 'Reply' button is obscured at the end of this topic except with Firefox 3.6.25 and I've tried IE, Chrome and Firefox 9. Comments also don’t post.
This is being posted from a PC with Firefox 3.6.25 and IE which shows the problem too, so it doesn't seem to be the other PC.

I couldn't find anywhere to contact with problems with the site
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Jenn Lin

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I am so sorry to take this drastic action. Adrianne, there was a bad layout issue with your last reply in the community. We were not handling the HTML well. Here is your unformatted content:

"300 dpi display" (I assume you mean ppi.) How many desktop monitors do you know of display at 300 ppi? Photoshop is not currently available for mobile devices, which do have resolutions of ~300 ppi.

And yes, more detail would certainly be more helpful. Here is some details about me:
- My vision is 20/30, corrected.
- I am 52 years old.
- I currently use a 27” iMac with a display resolution of 2560 x 1440, ppi of 109.
- I have used Photoshop since v.7, on both Windows and OS X.

I have screenshots to illustrate specific issues, which I will post separately.

"Plus, you're trying to read a lot of things into my response that I didn't write, and didn't intend."

If you did not write what I quoted, I apologize for my error. And I agree you probably didn't intend to sound as dismissive as you did.

It's getting rather late in the day, and I'm getting rather too snarky in my replies. But I stand firm in my observation that it's quite obvious from the hundreds of replies to Sharon's G's original question that many people have problems with the user interfaces for Photoshop and Photoshop Elements.
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Adrienne Adams

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@Jenn,

Thanks for fixing my post. I realized there was a formatting problem but I was unable to edit or delete my comment.
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Jenn Lin

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Any time! Heck, even I couldn't edit it for some reason. Gremlins in the HTML parser. Thanks for understanding.
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Chris Cox

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@Adrienne - I did write what you quoted, but then you read many things into my statements that were not even remotely present in my statements.
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VA_Granddaddy

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I'm surprised by many aspects of this discussion. The black on black icons and menus were introduced several years ago with PSE6. Many complaints were voiced at the time. Adobe chose not to change the user interface. Obviously Adobe has plenty of customers who like this interface, while others find it unreadable. Some other companies copied Adobe and have introduced a similar interface into their products. Why complain to Adobe or argue with their staff about their business decisions? Adobe has not changed its mind over the past several years. It's time to move on. There are several other excellent photo editors on the market. There are also excellent free photo editors that should satisfy most people's needs. There are also other photo organizers, both free and commercial, that are superior to that in PSE. I have been using those alternatives since PSE6 became so difficult to use. I have not missed PSE at all. When friends ask for advice, I recommend the free alternatives. I don't understand the drive to attack Adobe for its business decisions. It's a free market.
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Len Welch

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Boy, VA_Granddad, between Adobe's *seeming* indifference and your dismissive comment, I guess we'd be better served by just leaving Adobe's reps alone and moving along to other applications.

They've taken and hidden most of the posts in here anyway, so it's like the thread never existed. What a novel way to deal with problems--"sweep them under the rug."

I will say, this has been one of the biggest and most surprising disappointments of my computer experience. Everywhere one reads about graphic art or digital image editing, it's always "Photoshop." So maybe it's my 64-year old eyes.

However, I do have a little common sense left. I tried to read the pull-down menu for the brush size in PSE8 yesterday, and the fonts must be, like 3 points or something. It is just ridiculous how unusable this program is to me. Thank heaven it came bundled with another product and I'm not out a dime on it!

Still, what a let down! :/
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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No, they are in fact available for anyone to access/see using the link. It's no different than in the User to User forum the way that older topics are available on separate pages on longer threads. Just because they are segmented out on separate pages doesn't mean they are hidden, they are just on different pages. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but that's the way it works. If you don't like the way forums put long threads on separate pages to deal with page loading performance, talk with the makers of GetSatisfaction, Jive, phpBB, vBulletin, etc. My point to Len, and you, remains the same. We're not intentionally hiding posts for nefarious reasons to 'hide' anything. My official statement for the past 9 months has said that we acknowledge and appreciate everyone's comments and concerns - and that we're working with the product teams to address those concerns.
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Philip Goddard

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Actually, it *is* different from other forums I have used, because I cannot see any page number links. It is normal to have a list at the bottom, and often the top too, with "Page 1, 2 [...]", and I don't see that anywhere on this thread.
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Colin Douglas

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I disagree Jeffrey - In whitish text on a dark grey background (GRRRRR) there is this message - "Due to volume, only the 15 most recent recent replies are being displayed" - I can't see any option to view them all - it would appear that,to all intents and purposes, the vast majority of replies are in fact unviewable. If I've missed something I'm very happy to stand corrected :-)
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Then there's a link below that box that says: "View all replies using the Reply Explorer." in blue. If you click that link you can see all replies. Phil, yes, not all forums are exactly the same. Some forums don't allow voting, promoted responses or official answers, either. I'm not here to argue minutia - I simply explained to Len that the comments were still available and not "hidden" as a " novel way to deal with problems--"sweep them under the rug." - and included the link in my reply to access them and also stated this wasn't a nefarious decision on our part.
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Colin Douglas

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That would be useful Jeffrey, but I've searched the whole page using Firefox and IE - no sign of a blue box that says "View all replies using the Reply Explorer." ?!
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Click the link "View all replies using the Reply Explorer" in blue to browse and see all replies. Thanks.
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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I've posted a report about some users not seeing this issue here:

http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfa...

Hopefully it will be fixed soon. Colin D, thanks for the report.
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Linda Minton

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The quoted link also does not appear for me either, nor does Jeffrey's embedded link work to see all replies. I'm using Google Chrome, but have also tried it in Internet Explorer and Firefox. The quoted link does not appear in any of them, nor does Jeffrey's embedded link show all replies.
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Colin Douglas

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Aha - I don't see that Jeffrey - this is what I see :-

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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Well, that's a problem. What browser/OS combo are you using? Please post more details and further comment on this separate issue here: http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfa...

That way we'll keep this topic focused on the UI color issue. Thanks.
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Miguel Marn

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Hi Jeffrey. Not that I really need to read all these old posts, but I can confirm Colin's issue. No blue box here either. I use Firefox latest version. And the link in your reply doesn't open anything different either. Cheers, Mig
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Miguel Marn

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I meant blue link, not blue box ;-)
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Linda Minton

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In going to the "getsatisfaction" link to post about non-availability of the "View all replies using the Reply Explorer" link to us non-moderators, I found this answer:

----------------------------
EMPLOYEE
Adam Alley (Community Advocate) 1 hour ago
Hey Jeffrey.

Thanks for reaching out to us about this, and I apologize for the confusion. The Reply Explorer is actually only available to moderators. It's more of a stop gap measure that was put in place so that at least moderators would be able to see all the replies in truncated topics. Providing a robust solution to the problem of topic truncation is on our roadmap, and I'm going to get some additional information about this issue for you to share with your community members.

Thanks.
good solution!
Jeffrey Tranberry 1 hour ago
Ahh. That explains it. I was really confused why people were thinking we're were hiding stuff when there was a link there. I'm curious if my hypertext link in my reply works for standard/non-admin users to access the Reply Explorer.
----------------------------
(Linda here, again: Jeffrey, in answer to your last line above, no, your hypertext link in your reply does not work for non-admin users to access the Reply Explorer ... at least not for me, via Google Chrome, IE, or Firefox.)

cheers,
Linda
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Yup. Thanks. I apologize, it was really confusing that I could see it yet regular users could not. Here's a post from Amy Muller from GetSatisfaction on the topic:

http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfa...

Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like there's a quick fix from GetSat. Again, there's no conspiracy from either my team (Adobe) or GetSat to hide comments. Sorry guys.

And to reiterate, getting back to the original topic, please be aware that the teams at Adobe take your feedback seriously and they are working on improving the UI experience.
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Jenn Lin

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Yes, I apologize too. I can vouch for the fact that this is a technology issue, not something Jefferey can influence. Sorry all!
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Vince, please, limit discussions about forum issues to this thread so we can keep this topic focused on the original issue: http://getsatisfaction.com/getsatisfa...
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Vince37mr

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OK - sorry about that . Wasn't thinking - please delete my comment
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Jonathan Graef

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I sure hope Adobe is working on this for the next release. I hate using creative suite now. (yes, I used to really enjoy it, etc., etc.)

Plus, Adobe is a company that specializes in design and user interfaces. It would be funny if my brain didn't hurt.

Ouch. (my brain is hurting) Please fix.
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Thomas Mercer

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I bought Elements 6 two years ago, used it (tried) for a week and gave up, went back to v.4, felt a bit burned. I wanted to purchase the latest version today, thinking the UI issues would be fixed by now, but thought I'd do a search first, this site saved me $$, Adobe's loss. I tried v.6 again just to be sure it was as bad as I remembered, and I had to laugh - from a company that builds tools to help create visual content! Looks like Adobe and some stereo manufacturers got together to make it as just as hard to read.
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Vince37mr

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As a work-around to UI problems I sometimes use Window Magnifier. If interested here is the process for Windows 7:
Start, All Programs, Accessories, Ease of Access.
Then right-click Magnifier and click Pin to taskbar. I keep it at the LH end - just click and hold the icon and move it to where you want. Click to start it.
It takes a bit of getting used to but it does solve the UI problem until Adobe do it properly.
Grab the bottom RH corner to resize. I use a narrow horizontal bar about half the screen width and three toolbars high. If you drag it to the top or one side of the screen it expands to full width, docks and moves all the rest of the desktop down. To restore to variable window left-click and hold and move the window slightly.
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Vince37mr

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By the way, the Windows key plus + or - changes the magnification level.
Windows key plus Esc to exit magnifier
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debbie borato

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This shouldnt be necessary, Adobe just needs to update all Photoshop programs to adjust to new resolution screens out there. They are lagging!!
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Patricia Torbert

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I have used Elements frequently since version 3 came out (I do digital scrapbooking). I finally bought a new version (PSE 10). The reason I postponed getting a new version for so long is that I do not like the colors (mainly the grey on black) used for the workspace In them. Using the current colors makes the screen so much harder to read that the greay and while screen in PSE 3. Why does Adobe use so much black on their products work spaces? Otherwise this product gives me a lot of pleasure.

Also I find it difficult and very time consuming to try to wander through the online help that you have. Right now I am unable to drag png files onto psd files in editor -probably I've missed a setting somewhere.

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Love the program but the black and grey workspaces make some things difficult to see..
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Hi Patricia,

You probably want to choose File>Place... to load the PNG file into your PSD.
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Patricia Torbert

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I have already found a solution, but I will remember your suggestion for maybe a future use. Thanks.