Lightroom 5.4 - Sharpening adjustments don't appear in JPG exports or library module, but do appear in develop module

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Why don't sharpening adjustments appear in JPG exports in LR 5.4? Also, when I switch from the Develop module back to the Library module, sharpening adjustments I have just made to NEFs in the Develop module disappear. When I click back into the Develop module, they reappear. This make LR 5.4 COMPLETELY UNUSABLE as a professional image processing app. How do I revert to 5.3? That version was also buggy (it refused to resize images on export), but at least it didn’t screw up image QUALITY.
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Dale Greer

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  • once again very upset with Adobe's quality control

Posted 5 years ago

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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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What about if you view at 1:1, which is the only zoom level you should be using to judge sharpening? There is a warning triangle in the Detail area in LR Develop that tells you this.

Reduced-sized views in Develop are over sharpened due to the simplistic quick-and-dirty resampling algorithm used to keep things efficient.
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Dale Greer

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I have been using LR for more than four years, and this has never been an issue until I upgraded to LR 5.4. If I have to view every image at 100 percent to see what LR is actually doing to my images during editing, then LR is no longer a usable tool. I can't even fit a fifth of the image on my Macbook screen at 100 percent, making global evaluation impossible. If Adobe is basically displaying an image that lies in the develop module "to keep things efficient," I suggest you go back to the drawing board and re-engineer your rendering engine. I need to see an accurate depiction of my image and my edits in the Develop module, above all other considerations.

I want a JPG export that looks like the screen display of the image I see in the Develop Module. Why is that not possible? Seems like that would be Job 1 for an image editing program.
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Rob Cole

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If you set output sharpening to standard (or high maybe, if you prefer extra-crispy), and export at approximately the same dimension as you see in develop module fit view, then it *should* look appropriately sharp (when viewed at 1:1 in whatever app you are using to view) - does it not?

Note: all of those things are important in order to assess, so if you ignore the things you don't understand - all bets are off.. (consider asking for clarification instead).

For example, if you export without resizing enough, then view scrunched down in a non-sharpening viewer, it will look softer, or if you fail to include output sharpening, export will be softer...........

PS - if there is a bug and detail panel is being ignored or some such thing, then forget everything I said and try to assure you've got all the info needed to convince Adobe there is a problem and not just a misunderstanding - e.g. is detail panel enabled?....

Lr5.4 is working properly for me in this regard, but I acknowledge not everybody is bit by the same bugs..
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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First of all I am just another user like yourself, and not Adobe.

That warning about viewing at 1:1 has been there for many years, already, because Adobe has never supported a zoomed out view being a good approximation for what an exported image showed. The difference may have been something you didn’t notice before LR 5.4, but it has never supposed to have matched, and you were somehow just lucky that you never noticed or that it was a reasonable approximation.

The oversharpened look especially happens at non-whole-number zoom levels, such as Fit or Fill, so if you want a somewhat better approximation set your zoom level to 1:2, 1:4, 1:8 or whatever is close to the Fit or Fill zoom level. It also depends on what monitor size and resolution you have, and probably on the video drivers for your monitor if LR is handing off any of the bitmap resizing to the video subsystem—I don’t know that it does, but it may. In other words, LR may internally resize to one of the whole-number sizes and then let the video subsystem do the resampling down to whatever the viewport is. I don’t know, maybe LR does all the sizing and resampling.

In any case, the Detail panel adjustments, sharpening and noise-reduction, work at the original-image pixel resolution only; whereas sharpening applied at Export happens after the image has been resized, down, and may need to be different depending on what enlargement or reduction is happening as the final image is being produced. In other words there are two phases to sharpening and things may be different depending on the output device and output resolution, so you cannot expect your sharpening done in the Detail panel to be a one-size-fits-all sort of thing, so the sharpening in the Detail panel is more to give the Export sharpening some edges to bite on after the resizing has occurred.

See the “Sharpening Workflow” section of this article about Sharpening to understand what Adobe is trying to facilitate with their Detail and Export (and Adjustment Brush selective) sharpening:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tuto...
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Dale Greer

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Thanks, guys. I suppose I've been lucky enough to have never encountered this issue before.
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Rob Cole

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You're welcome, but I still wanna know if it's working correctly for you, or not - exports I mean, not library module.

And when I say "correctly", I mean "as Adobe intends", which is not necessarily the same as "how you think it should".

Consider re-reading some of the other posts in this thread and in the user2user forum and hopefully you can determine if it's just an operator educational thing or a true bug.

For example, you still haven't mentioned whether you've chosen to apply output sharpening or not, and what your (original and) export size is, and whether you're viewing exports at 1:1 - those things are all critical.
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Rob Cole

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So Dale - what's the deal - Lr not exporting properly, or operator "misunderstanding"?

Have you (checked export dimensions and) tried output sharpening and viewing exports at 1:1?

If you don't know how to do those things - better to ask than ignore. Objectives:

* you learn how to get proper exports, or
* Adobe learns that there is a (real) problem.

Sound good?

PS - I'm ignoring library module issues for now because export and library issues just can't be tackled simultaneously, and exporting seems like #1 priority. Issues may be related, but still...

???,
~R.
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Mohit Khanna

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Hello
Dale / Steve / Rob

am glad i found this thread as i am having similar issues
sharpness on exported jpgs is hurting me too
I am on LR 5.4, MacBook Pro 15" Retina, OSX 10.9.2

i dont know if this problem was present in earlier versions or was my ignorance all this while, but in last one month, i have read & seen many tutorials on image sharpening, i am familiar with all that has been written above by all of you

In my case:
i always do and check sharpening in Develop module at 1:1 size
i have set my preview size on import to STANDARD (not minimal, not 1:1)
in catalogue settings, file handling, 1440 pixels, high quality

now after having edited my 1DS Mark III CR2 image completely including sharpness
i go to Export with these settings:
jpeg / sRGB / 100 quality
resize to fit long edge / dont enlarge / 1024 pixels / resolution 72 ppi
output sharpening for screen - standard

am convinced that i am not doing any setting wrong so far
viewing exported jpg in mac 'Preview' app at 100%
(also to mention, Preview app prefs - jpg - 100% scale - 1 image pixel equals 1 screen pixel)

the jpg quality is really BAD in terms of sharpness !!!
compared to what i see in either library or develop module at 'Fit' view

now what?
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Rob Cole

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Hi Mohit,

I see you are running Lr5.4.

What I would do next is check whether develop module sharpening is having any impact whatsoever:

Set amount to zero, export, set amount to max, export again, and compare.

If they look the same, then obviously there is a bug. If not, then I'm not sure what to say, it's trickier to tease out the gray area.. - do tell...

R
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Rob Cole

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I wonder if it's a Mac/Mavericks bug - it seems most (all?) of the complaints about export sharpness are from Mac (Mavericks?) users, or am I dreaming..
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Mohit,

1Ds.3 images are natively 5616 x 3744, 21-megapixels, and you're resizing down to 1024x680 or so, less than 1-megapixel, a ratio of approximately 30 original image pixels for each 1 output pixel.

This means that any sharpening you do in the Detail panel in LR, unless very severe, is unlikely to translate to anything you can see in the output, and the only sharpening you're seeing is what Export's Screen/Standard does, which may or may not be enough to produce pleasing results depending on the level of image detail and sharpness.

LR has two places to specify sharpening, the sharpening at the original pixel resolution in the Detail area in Develop, and the sharpening at the resized-down resolution in the Export panel.

To test whether your Detail sharpening is transferring to your Output image, don't resize the output image and don't add any Export sharpening, then compare the Develop 1:1 to the non-resized output 1:1.

To test whether your Export sharpening is occurring, try one of the stronger Export sharpening settings: for example, Glossy/High and see if you see any change from Screen/Standard or no Export sharpening, again comparing 1:1 or 100% zoom.

If both of these sharpening phases are occurring then it is not a bug, even if the sharpening of your output image isn't identical to what you see either in Library or Develop.

If you would like someone else to verify what you're seeing, and to test if it is platform-specific, then zip up your raw file, and perhaps your output JPG(s) (one resized-down, and one not resized-down) and upload them to somewhere like http://www.dropbox.com then post a public download link, here.
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Rob Cole

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Steve Sprengel wrote:
|> "any sharpening you do in the Detail panel in LR, unless very severe, is unlikely to translate to anything you can see in the output"

I just did some checking (with output sharpening off) and concur: subtle develop sharpening is essentially lost when exporting at drastic reductions, e.g. 30->1 (understandably). On the other hand, extreme settings are still evident, which is why I recommend comparing no develop sharpening exports to maximum develop sharpening exports to see whether develop sharpening is being applied at all, or is totally being dropped, which is what many bug reports are claiming.

So Dale - if you export with amount = 150, radius=3, detail=100 (masking=0) does it look the same as when amount = 0?
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Meredith Guess

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Rob: "What I would do next is check whether develop module sharpening is having any impact whatsoever:

Set amount to zero, export, set amount to max, export again, and compare.

If they look the same, then obviously there is a bug."

I'm using LR4. I have done what Rob recommended and the develop module sharpening is not having ANY impact whatsoever. Is there any word on how to fix the "bug" that's causing this problem.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Can we see a screenshot of your settings of the Detail panel and get access to the original file as well as what you're exporting from both the No sharpening and the Max sharpening? Upload to http://www.dropbox.com/ and post a public download link, here. That way others can try what you're doing and see if they can confirm what is happening.

LR 5 is Adobe's active version, up to LR 5.6 as of a week or two, ago, so if there is a bug in LR 4 it won't be fixed; however, if you're not running the last LR 4 version then it's possible there is a bug that was fixed in a newer LR 4 version. Updates to LR can be found, here: http://www.adobe.com/downloads/updates

Of course, rather than a bug, if there is something you're doing or not doing that is causing what you're seeing, then maybe someone here can help.
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Meredith Guess

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Sadly, I'm one of those ppl who are very inexperienced at this type of thing and I do not even know how to get a screenshot. I am familiar enough with LR 4 to follow Rob's instructions to test my photos.

FYI, this just happened all of a sudden 2-4 weeks ago- that I noticed my exported pictures weren't as sharp as what I'd edited them to be in LR4. I'd been using LR4 for 11 months and hadn't had this problem until 2-4 weeks ago.

If you are patient enough to walk me through all of what you're referring to, I'll be happy to follow instructions, but I can see how that would be horrible to someone who is extremely knowledgeable in this are. :/
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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If you can't do a screenshot that's ok, just type out what the 4+6 lines of parameters for sharpening and noise-reduction are. And also tell us what File Settings, Imagine Sizing and Output Sharpening settings are when you Export.

The usual issue that people have is that the screen view of the effects of sharpening and noise reduction on the detail panel isn't accurate at reduced sizes, so when they sharpen using Fit or Fill view then Export the output files are not sharpened nearly as much as what they SEE ON SCREEN USING FIT ZOOM. This is normal because the fit and fill aren't supposed to be accurate at the detail level, they are there so you can see the effects cropping and toning and maybe spotting are having on the overall image, but an accurate reflection of how things that affect the pixel-level details like sharpening and noise-reduction are having. To judge those you need to be using 1:1 (100%) zoom, both in Develop to view things, and when you are viewing the files after export in whatever viewer you're using.

What is happening is that when you view things at less than 100% zoom, the specific program or maybe the video driver is resampling the original pixels using some method to get a smaller number for viewing on the screen, and those resampling methods aren't the same. To judge the detail handling of LR you need to be avoiding any resampling during viewing so need to have 1:1 or 100% zoom set in your viewer whether it be LR or an internet browser or your operating system photoviewer.

And being able to see the files on Dropbox is important if you can't supply screenshots. The reason I'm not sure what to tell you about screenshots is that I don't know what computer you have or what programs you might have for capturing screenshots. I use a special program to do this that costs money so I wouldn't want to tell you how to use that, since there are ways to do with using the OS for free. In Windows 8 there is probably a snipping tool in your windows accessories, somewhere, but otherwise I don't know what to tell you to do.
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Meredith Guess

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The photos that I now export do not have ANY of the sharpening applied to them (even when I've cranked it WAAAY up, more than average) as it is shown in the Develop mode. The Library is not showing the sharpening that had been applied in the Develop mode either.

I am doing nothing different than I was 2-4 weeks ago. A few weeks ago, everything I saw in Library and exported were exactly as I saw them in the Develop mode. Now, nothing that i do in regards to sharpening or N.R. is applied to export or Library view.

I have never used Output sharpening (though I see on here that some recommend using it) b/c I want exactly what I see in Develop mode to be exactly what is exported. This has never been a problem until some time in the last 2-4 weeks.

Photos that I've exported to jpegs before 2-3 weeks ago are sharp and crisp and exactly as I'd edited them in LR4. When I view them those photos in LR LIbrary now, they are blurry and shown without the sharpening applied to them that IS still shown in the Develop mode.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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If you don't want to supply your files or produce screenshots, then something else to try is to reset your LR preferences file, in case something is corrupted in there and causing problems. LR doesn't have a way to do this via a button or menu item, but the location of the preferences file is documented and you can use an operating-system level function to delete it:
http://members.lightroomqueen.com/Kno...
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Meredith Guess

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didn't refresh page so I didn't see your first response when I posted the 2nd post. Let me read your first and second response and get back with you. thanks!
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Meredith Guess

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Ok, well I did follow the instructions and delete my LR preferences file and it didn't fix the problem. :(

I am not cropping or changing the tone in these pictures. I have never editing my photos by zooming in to edit them. I have always edited them in the Fill or Fit mode and it was always accurate in the Library and after exporting them. How I view them in LR isn't the main problem (though the fact that it has changed suddenly is highly aggravating), but that what I see in the Develop mode is NOT even close to what is exported, though it was just a few weeks ago.

If I figure out how to add a screenshot of the comparison of what I see in the Library view verses the Develop view, I will add it.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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You can't use Fit or Fill when judging NR and sharpening.

There is a little exclamation point badge in the Detail area whenever your zoom is lower than 1:1 telling you not to judge sharpening or noise-reduction except using 1:1.

If you look at a photo in Develop at 1:1 then Export without resizing, then reimport that exported JPG and view it at 1:1 in LR do they look the same or not? If you're resizing on Export or not using 1:1 in Develop then it would only be coincidence that they look similar. Having more high ISO noise in an image can affect how it looks at Fit or Fill, as well as how sharp the lens is, in other words how smooth or finely-textured the original photo is before you enhance or degrade it with sharpening and noise-reduction.
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Meredith Guess

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This is the Library View and is what the photo looks like after exporting.
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Meredith Guess

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This is the Sharpened view of the picture in the Develop mode.
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Meredith Guess

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I"m not resizing any of my photos (or at least I don't know how to do that). And there's no way I can edit at a 1:1 ratio. when I do that, the half of the Lady's face is the only thing showing in my edit screen.

The problem is that it's not applying ANY sharpening when I edit. Even when I'm applying 150 maximum sharpening to this photo.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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You have to judge sharpening at 1:1 because the Develop Fit view is using a quick-but-inaccurate resampling algorithm, probably nearest neighbor, which chooses only one original pixel out of the many that are behind that one screen pixel. That will show things artificially sharper than they really are in the underlying image. When you Export or view in Library the resizing algorithm is doing an average of the underlying pixels so it looks less sharp but more like what it should look like for the given settings.

You can do sharpening at 1:1 because you only need one area or hair or one eye to judge the rest of them by.

Please provide a screenshot of the sharpest face in that shot at 1:1 both in Develop and a JPG after you've exported it.

What may have changed a few weeks ago is a video driver update or a video game installation that changed the video-quality settings for what the video card does to resized images.
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Rob Cole

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Meredith Guess wrote:
|> "am doing nothing different than I was 2-4 weeks ago. A few weeks ago, everything I saw in Library and exported were exactly as I saw them in the Develop mode. Now, nothing that i do in regards to sharpening or N.R. is applied to export or Library view."

Did you upgrade Lightroom?

If not, it sounds like you're being bit by some kind of system-dependent bug in Lr4. You can try all the usual stuff for restoring health - e.g. deleting preference file.., but if I were you, I'd try the latest version of Lightroom (currently 5.6). If it has a problem too, then you have some chance of having it fixed. You can be sure nothing will change in Lr4 again - ever..
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Meredith Guess

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I did not upgrade. Don't you have to pay for that?

I know I"m an amateur at LR (i've used it only 12 months), so does LR 5 upgrade include fixing bugs/problems from earlier editions?