Lightroom 5 - Output Sharpening and Noise Reduction not working.

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Just installed Lightroom 5 final. Output Sharpening and Noise Reduction does not work. Whole story here:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1229132
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Aurius Paskevicius

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Posted 6 years ago

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Marcin H. F.

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Hi guys I'm using Lr 5.3 and still having these problems when editing a raw file from a lumix fz150... (noise reduction doesn't show up on any exports I make)
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Can you provide an example image with the problem, uploading to somewhere like www.dropbox.com, then post the public download link, here?
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Marcin H. F.

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Hi Steve, thank you for trying to help, here is the link: https://shared.com/f/buwxne29x4

There are three files there.
1. screenshot of the difference of the exported file and what I did in Lr
2. the original RAW file
3. the exported file (jpg)
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Marcin H. F.

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I also just noticed, that my library view also doesn't have the noise reduction applied... I wonder if I'm doing something wrong.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Marcin H. F.:

I tried to duplicate your Toning NR settings from the history recorded in the JPG you provided.

Below is a side-by-side showing my exported JPG plus the view in Develop. My exported JPG has NR applied. In an attempt to sharpen any noise that wasn't removed, I maxed out the export sharpening to Glossy / High, so the blemishes are slightly more obvious in my exported file but the underlying noise appears to have been completely removed, just like in Develop.

My Library view shows NR applied, too. What happens if you recompute standard and 1:1 previews of the image?

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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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What computer and OS are you running LR on? I'm running LR 5.3 on a Windows 7 computer.
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Marcin H. F.

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I'm also running LR 5.3 on a Windows 7. Hmmm I'm running the trail version, so maybe that's it... maybe there are some limitations...

Sorry I'm new to this so I'm not sure I exactly understand "recompute" do you mean "export"?
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Marcin H. F.

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I'm wondering if I have some kind of setting on or off (that shouldn't be on or off), since I'm not seeing the NR in the Library view... and the export is the same. (I do see the other fixes like spot removal and black and white conversion).
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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You might try deleting your LR preferences file in case something is corrupted with that, and causing hiccups in LR.

You should exit LR then delete the .agprefs file indicated in item 1 of this article: http://kylenishioka.com/blog/2012/06/...

If you don't already know where your catalog is stored, then figure that out before deleting the preferences file. Item 1 of the blog post is about troubleshooting a catalog issue, so it says to start with a new blank catalog after deleting the preferences file. You are not trouble-shooting a corrupted catalog (at this point at least) so you want to open your existing catalog not start with a new one.
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Marcin H. F.

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Thank you!
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Since it's working for me and not for you, perhaps there is some other adjustment you made, like the blemish removal via the spotting tool, that is somehow causing an issue with NR in LR Exports.

You can test this by creating a virtual copy of this image, select the VC, then reset the spotting tool, or maybe just reset the entire photo--it should turn back to color, then redo the NR Lum=87, and then export from the reset VC and see if the NR is applied.

"Recomputing" (rebuiding) Previews is done in Library:
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Marcin H. F.

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man... this is so weird, I'm really not getting something... Ok, I think I got it (:

So... This is what I did:

1. I did what you said, I built standard-sized previews using your instructions (I didn't know that the menu changes depending on whether your in library or development).

2. Then I tried to reset... but weird things started happening... it reseted to black and white, so I went into: Development->Set Default Settings... and chose "Restore Adobe Default Settings".

So that was probably the problem. Thank you so much for your help Steve!

All the best in the New Year!

p.s. oh, and the export with NR started working after the fixes I applied!
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Sounds like something was corrupted somewhere. Glad you reset things and it works, now.
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Marcin H. F.

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Yes, and if it stops working in the future, I will know (thanks to you) which setting to play around with.

Again, thank you Steve
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Derek Glatts

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Hi I am new to this site, but I am experiencing a very similar problem.

I just downloaded Lightroom version 5.4. When I switch from Develop mode to Library mode, my sharpening edits disappear. I also loose the sharpening when I export to jpeg.

Any suggestions?
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Rob Cole

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Library module is notoriously soft compared to develop module - in fit view I mean, more at some some resize ratios than others.., but the 1:1 view should be very close to what you see in develop module at 1:1 - is it not?

And exports should be fully sharpened if you have output sharpening set to "Standard" (judge at 1:1 only).

Try this:
======
With output sharpening set to zero, crank sharpening to max (and export) then set sharpening to zero (and export) then compare the exports at 1:1. If they are the same, then there is a bug for sure (Lr is dropping the develop sharpening), if they are different, then something else is going on - may still be a bug, but the characteristics really need to be nailed down.

Also try this:
=========
Leave develop sharpening at zero, and repeat the experiment above *except* vary output sharpening from zero to max (instead of develop sharpening). The goal of this part is to determine whether output sharpening is having any effect whatsoever...
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Derek Glatts

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Thanks Rob for the speedy reply,

I did not have output sharpening checked at all when exporting. 1:1 is exactly the same in Develop and Library mode.

I think that fixed my problem. I am an amateur and do not have a lot of experience working with Lightroom. For future reference, is the output sharpening directly related to the develop sharpening? (Like one wont work without the other, or controls the other) or are they completely different ways to add sharpening?

Thank for the help though!
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Rob Cole

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Good to hear Derek. For the context of this discussion you can think of output sharpening as being completely independent of develop sharpening. The idea is:

* sharpen only to the point that it looks good in develop module at 1:1 (but do not oversharpen), then
* use output sharpening in accordance with the actual output medium (e.g. screen versus paper) to *preserve* the sharpness that you see in develop module at 1:1 on the output medium.

In other words, Lr will output a slightly softer version if there is no output sharpening, so if you want sharp output, you need output sharpening too.

Although output sharpening is relatively subtle compared to develop sharpening, it is still a critical element of the process.

Cheers,
Rob
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Derek Glatts

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Thanks!
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Rob Cole

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Judging from your fresh bug report, I'm gleaning the output sharpening was not a panacea for you?

But since most people are not having the problem you are, and Adobe hasn't chimed in recently whether they can reproduce problem or not, it would behoove you to determine for sure whether develop sharpening is being applied, or not, and whether output sharpening is being applied, or not.

Just claiming your exports are not as sharp as you expect will not garner much traction... - they/we have heard it before, a million times (because it's normal and a result of unrealistic albeit reasonably arrived-at expectations).

Know what I mean?

Put another way: HOW much sharpening was lost? - *all* of it, or just some of it. And you have to understand and state that all assessment was done at 1:1 otherwise everything else gets dismissed... - seriously: if you want a remedy, you have to play this game!

~R.
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Shanethomas

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I'm sorry. Why is the issue marked as "solved"? I have spent MONTHs getting to grips with Lightroom and finally, I'm producing images that I'm happy with. I decide to export an image for some online feedback - and guess what? No sharpening or clarity local adjustments are translated into the export. No noise reduction is translated into the export. Essentially my work is lost on export.

I'm more than just a little annoyed. Lots of money and MONTHS of work, yet wholly unable export images and have them represented as presented in Lightroom?

I can find two versions of the current status:

1) Live with it, just export full size and use another tool to resize.

- Really? That's the "solution"?
- This means a loss of quality as sharpening is non-proportional.
- This means a loss of quality as noise reduction is all but "lost" as external tools are sharpening on the resize.
- How can it be that a major product developer - ONE YEAR after a bug has been identified - is happy to simply tell users "this product is the industry standard for RAW development, but your work is lost on export."

2) "Resolved"

- I'm using CC, so I'm always "up-to-date", as of this morning, this is NOT resolved.

So, Adobe, what's the status here?

Regards,

A disappointed and Angry Consumer.
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Rob Cole

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Adobe thinks they've solved this particular problem, and for many of us - they have.

Begging the question - is it the same problem, or a similar but different one.

Have you found that exports (even a tiny bit) above 1/3 have noise reduction and/or sharpening applied, whereas those (even a tiny bit) below 1/3 size do not? If so, then it is the same problem, otherwise not.

If it's the same problem, then consider stating your operating system here, and the version of Lightroom (the part after the dot too).

If it's a similar but different problem, consider a new thread - it seems to me lots of Mac users are complaining of similar problem, but maybe Windows users are too - dunno.

PS - I'm just a poor user like you - not Adobe..
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Shanethomas

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Hi Rob,

Really kind of you to weigh in. Thank you.

I've just tried it out. Definitely the same problem. Less than 1/3, no sharpening, no local clarity adjustments, no noise reduction. Full size export, adjustments applied but "lost" when re-sizing in external applications (ie. sharpness is lost during the resize process).

Lightroom 5.3 (using CC, so always up-to-date).

Result: Problem is not "solved".
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Hans van Eijsden

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Aaaaaaah! Lightroom 5.3!
Well, try Lightroom 5.4, this is what the Lightroom 5.4 change log says:
"Sharpening/Noise Reduction were applied inconsistently depending on crop and export image size."
Or wait, in less than 6 hours Adobe will announce "some" new software.
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Shanethomas

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Hey Hans. Thanks!

I feel like a fool. I just realised that at some point I disabled updates. No idea why!!

For fun, here's a side-by-side screen shot which illustrates the problem very clearly. :-)

Thanks for your help. Can't believe I didn't notice that.

I'll upgrade to 5.4 and try again...
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Shanethomas

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OK. Updated to 5.4. Exported with 800px short edge. Same problem. No improvement at all.

Here's another side by side:



Note sharpening problem easily by paying attention to the tree in the far background, and the lead subject's hair. Not that noise reduction is lost completely.

For now, the result remains: not solved

To those of you that are trying to help me - thank you - I appreciate it sincerely. However, Lightroom 5.4 with Camera Raw 8.5 is still exporting without the adjustment.
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Hans van Eijsden

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Wow, that's really strange. Things look like a little sharper, but not better. Look at those jagged edges, those lines..
I would love to test it for you here too. Can you please upload the RAW file, or send it (WeTransfer) to info@hansvaneijsden.nl so I can experiment with it?

Ah and by the way, (I hope we're seeing the images at 100% in your screenshots): the image on the right, is that an export of an older Lightroom version? Or a different program?
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Shanethomas

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The side by sides, are literally simply a screen shot of the export (.jpg - on the left) next to the Lightroom window in develop mode (right).

Oddly enough; I've just discovered that a full 100% scale .jpg export also has the same problem. If I "edit in Photoshop" and throw it across from light room, it also has the same problem.

The problem being, what I'm seeing in Lightroom (right) is not what I'm getting in export (left).

In other words; the image on the right is what I want to get exported.
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Shanethomas

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Another interesting point. I just realised that in "Develop", I get the sharpened and noise reduced image. But, in "library" - the image is flat an dull just like the export.

So, the export looks like the "library version".
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Hans van Eijsden

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Here I see the same thing. Although your screenshot taken from the Develop looks better (less noise, sharper), it's an error in Lightroom: Lightroom displays images in Develop with too much noise correction while watching them zoomed out. The Develop module is only accurate while watching at 1:1, 100% zoomed in. The Library module is more accurate.
I always zoom in to 1:1, do the noise reduction and sharpening, and then export. When I export to 1024 or lower (longest side), I put the output sharpening (in the Export module!) to Screen High. When I'm exporting to 2048, I put it on Screen, Standard. When I'm exporting to full size, I turn it off.
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Shanethomas

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Hi Hans,

Thanks for that. I've just been playing with those settings and see what you mean. I can get the "sharpness" overall to be the more or less the same on export, but you're right. The noise reduction is miles away.

I'll just need to remember that in lightroom - what you see is not what you get. I guess a slight overshoot on the noise reduction would do the trick.

Thanks to both you and Rob for your help (@rob: I got much closer through following your extensive effort in other threads).

Thanks Gents, I wish you both a very good day.

All the best,
Shane.
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Hans van Eijsden

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Same to you Shane. Maybe Adobe will announce new things/solutions in 4 hours... can't wait. :)
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Shanethomas

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Sounds like a plan!

Hans, following your final advice, I snapshotted, then did a bump of the NR just before export and set to standard sharpen on export.

End result below:


Not identical, but very very close.

Thank you BOTH for such helpful advice!
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Rob Cole

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No mention about sharpening / NR in 5.5 release notes. So do we just chalk this up to user experience, or do some folks still think there is a software problem?
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Shanethomas

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Hey Rob.

I would call it less a "Bug" and more a "design flaw" at this stage.

The side by side above shows that, using a work around of bumping the NR and sharpening before export, resulted in an export similar to that on screen.

The key is the language here: "Develop Module". I would expect at WYSIWYG interface here. To say that what is seen in "Develop Module" is not, in fact, the status of development due to resizing is nonsense. If an over calculation is being applied to the "preview", then simply apply the same calculation as the export. If the "Fit" size view (or any resized view) is n pixels in size, then an export should mirror it. Otherwise; local adjustments are meaningless.

I suspect the bug of failure to apply the NR and Sharpening is fixed (as the above images show). However, the design flaw is glaring. I'm guessing that the "Industry Standard" status of the product suite now leaves us, as consumers, in the usual state: "If you don't like it, don't use it".

I would prefer to see development effort going into "WYSIWYG Editing and Viewing" rather than "new features".

Sincerely though; through a combination of your explanations and Hans guidance, I was at least able to understand WHY I was getting poor export results. The workaround get's you close.

It simply means however, that Lightroom is absolutely NOT the tool for fine art photography. Since, the "finer" elements are at best challenging to reproduce on export.

Shame.

All the best gentlemen, and thank you for your help!
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Rob Cole

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You're welcome Shane, but I'm having a hard time understanding the problem you are having.

I mean, if you apply standard output sharpening then exported files look almost identical to develop module, right?

Is the problem that it's not exactly identical, or that standard output sharpening is not the default, or...?
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Shanethomas

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To be honest Rob. The point is closed or at best moot. Sharpening at standard on export is indeed similar to what's being seen. Similar is not same. Due to the naming of the "develop" module, one would expect to see that "developed" image prior to export - not one that is "similar".

Additionally, that covers only "sharpen". The fact that NR is off by an average of 15-20 points is certainly nonsense.

The combined effect of NR being "way off" and sharpening being "similar" results in a game of "multiple exports with tweaking of the NR slider along with changes to the export sharpening value" that could be avoided with a preview algorithm aligned to export settings.

For now, I'm resigned to "doing the export tweak dance" on the assumption that it's a behaviour of the application that unlikely to be refined in the interest of user experience and a streamlined workflow.
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Rob Cole

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Fair enough Shane. I dunno why there are differences in sharpening in develop module versus export/standard. I mean, I could guess, but it'd just be guessing.

Regarding noise reduction - I've never noticed a difference before, but I'll keep a look out - is problem color, luminance, or both? - I assume we are talking about develop module at fit view, right? I've previously only evaluated at 1:1.