Lightroom: Folders for added Camera Calibration Profiles

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DNG (Camera Calibration) Profiles are like presets - manageable if you have no more than a dozen or two, but a nightmare once you have a few dozen or more.

So this idea is for Adobe to allow camera calibration profiles to be stored in subfolders, and have those subfolders presented in the drop-down - like how people want presets to be handled in the drop-down lists - scroll bars if necessary...
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Rob Cole

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Posted 7 years ago

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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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I'd certainly be interested to know how many people are creating that many profiles, and what they're using them for.
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David Ritch

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I use custom profiles for lots of situations. Any time I shoot an unusual lighting situation - high school band under field lights, mixed flash and natural light, etc. - I shoot a color sample, too. The profiles build up rather rapidly.
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Rob Cole

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So David, do you like this idea of folders for those profiles?
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David Ritch

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Yes! Sorry if that was not clear from my initial comment. I'd love to be able to organize them in some way. That would work, and I would not expect it to be too complex to implement or to work with.
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Rob Cole

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I thought so - maybe go click the +1 button at page top?
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David Ritch

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Sorry - done. Not used to this forum format yet. ;-)
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Rob Cole

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Excerpts from the DNG Profile Editor FAQ:
================================

Here are some cases in which PE may come in handy:

Making adjustments to existing camera profiles. If there's something specific about an existing profile (e.g., yellow saturation) that you don't like, you can use PE to make your desired changes and save the results to a new profile.

Optimize profiles for infrared-modified cameras and unusual lighting situations, both of which might cause an image's white balance to fall outside of CR / LR's standard range. See Tutorial 4 for details.

Optimize colors for specific applications (e.g., studio portraits, fall foliage colors, etc.).

Get multiple cameras to produce similar colors. Useful if performing a shoot using multiple cameras (e.g., a main camera and backup camera).

And these are just a few of many cases...

--------------------------------------------------------
a single profile recipe (e.g., a recipe designed to optimize skin tones) can be used to generate multiple camera profiles.
--------------------------------------------------------
...
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Andrew Rodney

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Most users only need a few DNG profiles (I know, some companies would like you to shoot a Macbeth for every scene and roll a profile). But its debatable if that’s even useful expect for a tiny group of users. One can (and probably should) embed the DNG Profiles into their DNG files (an advantage of DNG unlike a proprietary raw). X-Rite provides a DNG utility for keeping track of the profiles as well, its free. Currently those using multiple camera systems automatically get the profiles filtered which helps. So the idea that a DNG profile is a preset seems like a huge stretch, its certainly not how the profiles were originally envisioned nor designed. There are selective color tweaking tools in LR.

Got no problem if someone wants to make a plug-in to filter them as requested or, if Adobe has so much engineering resources and money they want to do this. But in terms of all the stuff we need in V4, this would go far down on my list and I suspect Adobe’s.
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Andrew Rodney

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>To clarify for others: its only free *after* you pay for it. meaning you have to have a x-rite colorchecker passport serial number to download it.

No. The target(s) isn’t free, never was. Passport software (and the utility) are free. You don’t have to actually have a Passport product, but you do have to have a Macbeth color checker to use the Passport software. If you don’t have a Macbeth/Passport target, you can’t build DNG profiles.
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Rob Cole

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I was unable to download the utility without providing a paid-for serial number. Did I miss something?

Just to be clear: You *can* create DNG profiles without a Macbeth/Passport target, you just can't use the x-rite software (or the like) to do it. (I'm sure this is what Andrew meant, just clarifying for other readers).

In fact, I've found it useful to use the Profile Editor just to tweak one color in one photo. Hint: you need to do 3 (the target color + two nearby colors to "sandwich it in") - only problem is the cluttering of the folder-less profile drop-down.
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Andrew Rodney

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>I was unable to download the utility without providing a paid-for serial number. Did I miss something?

Did you register the target? That’s the carrot.

For the software to create DNG profiles (with paid target):

http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_over...
or
http://xritephoto.com/ph_product_over...
provides the free Passport software to build DNG profiles with a target you had to have paid for.

> You *can* create DNG profiles without a Macbeth/Passport target, you just can't use the x-rite software (or the like) to do it.

You *can’t* create a DNG profile without a Macbeth target. The Macbeth is incorporated into the Passport target. You *can* use the X-Rite software to build DNG profiles with any flavor (size) of Macbeth target. Even one you bought before DNG was even introduced (its been around for decades).
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Andrew Rodney

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Xrite tells me that registering any target product qualifies for a link via email for the DNG manager. So again, both software products are free. The target, not.
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Rob Cole

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My only reason for making a distinction between "free" and "doesn't cost extra" is so other people understand that if they've *not* paid for the target, then they will not be able to download the software to manage their camera calibration profiles.
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Rob Cole

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For the first 2 years I used Lightroom, I created zero camera calibration profiles using the DNG Profile Editor. Why? I wrongly assumed one couldn't create DNG profiles for NEF files.

For those of you who don't know, you can! Procedure:
1. Use DNG Converter to make a DNG copy of your NEF picture.
(or make a physical copy of the NEF+XMP, import, then use Lightroom to convert to DNG).
2. Run DNG Profile Editor and open the DNG (and previously saved recipe if applicable), and save the profile in the proper place.
3. Save the recipe for future editing, and delete the "intermediate" DNG file.
4. Restart Lightroom.

Summary:
=======
There are three impediments to creating camera calibration profiles:
1. knowing that its possible (FR/Idea that may help in this regard)
2. Jumping through the procedural hoops (FR/Idea to remedy this).
3. Cluttered profile list in Lightroom. This FR/Idea is the remedy...

Total estimated resource expenditure: very, very little (once the code is written for doing same with presets and plugin-extras).
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Andrew Rodney

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> wrongly assumed one couldn't create DNG profiles for NEF files.

A DNG file is ONLY necessary for the creation of said profile (or editing), not for its use on proprietary raws (Adobe makes this pretty clear I thought). The advantage of using DNG’s with DNG profiles is one can embed them into that container. Very handy (among the other advantages of the DNG format).
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Rob Cole

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"...Adobe makes this pretty clear I thought..." - its very clear once you get far enough into the documentation to *read* it! But I'd guess I'm not the only one who never got that far just because its called a DNG profile editor.
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Andrew Rodney

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True, you do have to read it for it to be clear (understood). RTFM.
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David Ritch

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If supporting a hierarchical folder structure of profiles were a gargantuan programming task, I would argue that there are many more important tasks. However, it isn't. If the LightRoom team is using fairly sophisticated widgets in their implementation, it should only be a matter of minutes to make this modification. If not, and the file chooser has to be reworked, I would be surprised if it took an experienced programmer half a day to implement.

I think that this level of investment would be very appropriate for this improvement in functionality.
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Rob Cole

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The fact that X-Rite has gone to the trouble of making an application to allow one to manage camera calibration profiles, indicates that X-rite believed a critical mass of people need to manage camera calibration profiles. Although having an X-Rite ColorChecker Passport leads one to create more profiles, its not the only thing that does. And this can not be seen as a general solution, since its use is restricted to ColorChecker Passport owners.

Note: If you use the profile manager utility, you still have to restart Lightroom for changes to take effect. Also, it does not recognize all the camera calibration profiles that Lightroom does for reasons that I shan't go into...

So, I think we have proof that a significant number of users would benefit from DNG profile management in Lightroom, at a minimum - folders (and hopefully a refresh function). The rest can be done by hook or crook as now (e.g. manually using OS, scripts/plugins...).

Reminder: the easier it is to use the DNG Profile Editor in conjunction with Lightroom, the more demand there will be for this feature.

And to paraphrase David Ritch: this is not a big development effort - au contraire - very small...
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Butch_M

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While I am not opposed to there being a folder structure for CC profiles ... I do have to wonder about the need for an infinite volume of such profiles ...

The whole purpose of creating a custom camera profile is to create a fine-tuned interpretation of the individual camera's ability to represent a known standard of color accurately ...

While we have wonderful software and hardware options to profile our monitors for a color managed workflow, do we use dozens of profiles in the process? ... or just the most current and accurate profile?

IMHO ... once you have created a profile for each of the most used light sources you shoot under, there is little need or reward to create further profiles ... simply shooting an image with a WB target should suffice ...

Not to mention that once created and applied to images in our catalogs, if we want to continue to use all those dozens, hundreds and even thousands of profiles, we must maintain all those profiles for the life expectancy of the image files themselves ... who needs all that housework effort to especially if you view the images from more than one workstation? ... It all just seems a little impractical and considerably more effort than necessary for the potential reward ...
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Andrew Rodney

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>The whole purpose of creating a custom camera profile is to create a fine-tuned interpretation of the individual camera's ability to represent a known standard of color accurately ...

Exactly!

Some need to keep in mind what the tool (the editor) was designed for and for what kinds of users:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/08/...:

To support this effort, we’re providing a free utility to the photographic community called the DNG Profile Editor. Please keep in mind that this tool is intended for advanced users.

What about the DNG Profile Editor? What is this tool, and who is it for? Color, simply put, is highly subjective. Not only do we have individual color preferences (much like choosing a favorite film), but these preferences often depend on what we’re shooting. A single profile, even a highly accurate one, is unlikely to be suitable or even desirable for all of your images. We recognize that some photographers may want to create their own profiles or tweak existing ones.

The Chart Wizard is particularly handy when shooting regularly under strange lighting conditions. For example, compact fluorescent light bulbs often have spiky spectra, leading to strong magenta or green casts in images even when a proper white balance is set. Yes, you can use the HSL adjustments in CR and LR to reduce these casts, but it takes a fair amount of experience to do so effectively without impacting other colors. The Chart Wizard takes the guesswork out of the process and is also much more precise, since it’s able to target and fix very specific colors (such as whacked-out greens, an unfortunate property of my kitchen lights...) while leaving others alone.
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Rob Cole

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Not everyone creates the same number of camera calibration profiles, nor does everyone create them for the same reasons. Adobe has given numerous reasons for creating them, and I agree with each and every one of them (plus I have some of my own...).

PS - Design should be adapted to need, not vice versa. (whoa, that's a good one, eh?)
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Butch_M

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"PS - Design should be adapted to need, not vice versa. (whoa, that's a good one, eh?)"

Sure sounds better than accusing others of being short-sighted ...
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Rob Cole

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Agreed - its hard not to resort to insulting remarks when it seems like others are giving you a bad time, isn't it?
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Andrew Rodney

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>its hard not to resort to insulting remarks when others are giving you a bad time, isn't it?

IOW, not agreeing with you.
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Rob Cole

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Not agreeing with me does not even begin to cover the various ways I feel people are giving me a bad time sometimes. Likewise, people often feel I'm giving them a bad time, and sometimes they're right, and sometimes they're wrong, and sometimes they're right but not for the reasons they think...

Signal now? - or noise? (I'd say the latter - my post, and yours...)
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Rob Cole

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Work-around:

Presets can embody just camera calibration profiles, and since presets support folders (albeit rather weakly) one can use preset folders for organizing camera calibration profiles into folders.

Caveat: You have to edit the presets with a text editor after creating them, for example:


Change:
settings = {
BlueHue = 0,
BlueSaturation = 0,
CameraProfile = "Camera Vivid",
EnableCalibration = true,
GreenHue = 0,
GreenSaturation = 0,
RedHue = 0,
RedSaturation = 0,
ShadowTint = 0,
To:
settings = {
CameraProfile = "Camera Vivid",
EnableCalibration = true,

then restart Lightroom.

So only the profile is being included in the preset.

This work-around offers another advantage over the drop-down list for selecting camera calibration profiles - effect of profile is displayed in navigator upon rollover prior to selection.

This work-around makes camera calibration profile folders unnecessary, although still desirable as a convenience.

Reminder: It would be a *big* help for Lightroom to be able to refresh presets, and even more importantly 'camera calibration profiles' without restarting Lightroom (even if only via SDK). Among other things, this would allow a plugin to be able to support Camera Calibration Profile Management, as well as profile editing for the purpose of photo color refinement, to stand in until fancier color adjustment is supported natively in Lightroom.
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Sjaan van der Jagt

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I make a lot of presets in ACR (camera colorcalibration). The problem is that all the profiles are in one big list. I did not manage to make folders for all the camara's and lenscombinations yet.

With a manageable filestructure in the presets-folder my life would be much easier.

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Lightroom/Camera Raw: Ability to manage your Camera Calibration presets.