Lightroom: The DNG Thumbnails of my Sony DSC RX100 are not shown in the File Finder of my Mac.

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Lightroom Bug: The DNG Thumbnails of my Sony DSC RX100 are not shown in the File Finder of my Mac. When I first import the original RAWs from my Sony DRC RX100, I can see the thumbnails in the File Finder (so my Mac with OSX 10.9.1. is perfectly fine), but after reworking them with Lightroom and exporting them as DNG files, the pictures are not shown any more as thumbnails in the file finder, but as empty white boxes. The curious thing is that the RAW pictures shooted with my Nikon D5200 do not have any visualization problem after exporting them as dng from Lightroom. The problem is very disgusting, as I can not search for pictures in the file finder. And Adobe did just close my open request on this issue (case #0180632682) without my consent and without any solution! Who else has got this problem and knows if there is any help to this stupid phenomenon? Does anyone at Adobe take care ?
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tinero

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  • frustrated and unhappy

Posted 4 years ago

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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Adobe can't do anything about it because the files are perfect - it's an issue with way the operating system is displaying them. It's Apple you need to complain to, sorry.
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tinero

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Hi Victoria, maybe Apple has the strategy to frustrate Adobe users in order to get them over to Aperture...
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tinero

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If Lightroom is not compatible with Apple's OSX and does not take care of fixing such important bugs / problems, is going to loose a lot of clients!
Adobe should work with Apple to resolve this in its own interest.
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Chris Cox

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You're not talking about a Lightroom problem, you're talking about the lack of functionality in MacOS.

And Adobe can't fix MacOS.
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tinero

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Yes, but the problem is affecting Adobe and thousands of its clients. If Adobe helps Apple to resolve this issue, would help its clients and also itself...
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tinero

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If Adobe knows the issue, as it seems, is it taking any action together with Apple to resolve this? I know that the files are right because I could see them before I got Mavericksvand LR 5.
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Chris Cox

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Apple cannot display thumbnails, or read all DNG files. That is a failing of MacOS X. Despite Adobe knowing of failings in MacOS, Adobe cannot fix Apple's code in MacOS.
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tinero

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Ok, thanks. Is seems to be clear where the problem is...
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Apple and Adobe are separate companies. The don't "take action together".

Are you updated to the latest update from Apple? http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1717

It looks like they updated something for the RX100 for lens corrections, so maybe that broke something with RX100 DNGs, or if you're not updated to that, maybe it fixes something with RX100 DNGs.

Once you're updated to 5.03 then complain to Apple if it doesn't work.
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tinero

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Tried the Update, but unhappily it does not resolve the problem.
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tinero

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Thanks Steve,

I will try the Apple Update that You sent me. Thank You for that.

I am well aware about the fact that Apple and Adobe are different companies. Nonetheless if I develop and sell Software that should be compatible and work with the most popular operating systems, I would do my best to ensure that my product works smoothly with them and look for cooperation with them. I guess that this happens quite often, because it's natural. Otherwise, if I leave my customers alone with such major compatibility problems, they might buy another compatible product next time...
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tinero

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Do You have a hint or better a link where I can report the bug to Apple? My Mac run out of extended support...
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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There is no help Adobe can give Apple for something like this. Apple fixed something for the RX100 and broke something else in the process. There are probably not 1000s of people who convert RX100 raws to DNGs and expect to preview them in Apple-OS functions, I’d guess. Now if it affects Aperture they might be a little quicker to fix it.

I am a PC guy so can’ t really advise on where to submit Apple bug reports. That one link I gave, above, was from Googling.

One thought: do you have an Apple Store somewhere in your area, where you can demonstrate the issue for an Apple Genius person? If you don’t have a portable mac, just take a flash-drive with several DNGs from a camera that works and several DNGs from a camera that doesn’t work and let the person see those and maybe submit a bug, themselves. Having a “bad” file will help Apple figure things out, easier.
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tinero

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Thanks Steve! If it's only the Sony RX100 and not other Sony cameras as well, then I might be relatively alone with this disappointing bug. I will take your suggestion and challenge an Apple product genius...
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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A more convincing demonstration would be to see the DNGs work on an older OS or one without the 5.03 raw update applied, and then not work on the latest OS with the 5.03 update applied.

Otherwise, it could easily be assumed that the DNGs are just corrupted.

Another thing to do if you can, is use the standalone DNG Converter (rather than LR) to create DNGs fro the raw files that work and show that the DNGs don't work, and then do the same thing for some raws from your Nikon that do work both before and after conversion to DNGs.

Try this on your own computer for yourself, first, just in case the DNGs from the DNG Converter do work, somehow, and only the ones from LR, don't.

The DNG Converter can be downloaded from here:
http://www.adobe.com/downloads/updates
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tinero

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Apple gave me the following answer. I do not understand what I should do. Can anybody translate please?

"Engineering has determined that this issue behaves as intended based on the following information:

The Sony DSC RX100 requires lens distortion correction, so either the DNG files are linearized, with correction baked in, or DNG files requiring DNG v1.3, neither of which RawCamera currently supports.

Please update your bug report to let us know if that resolves the issue for you."
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PECourtejoie, Champion

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Hello, that means that Apple still does not support the DNG specification 1.3, published 5 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_...
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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I have a Sony RX100 and can reproduce the same problem here on both 10.9 and 10.8. Canon DNG's show up fine.

Apple were really slow to start displaying thumbnails for the native Sony ARW files too, although that now works - you'll find complaint threads on the Apple forums.
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tinero

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Thanks a lot for taking your time. I will try to knock on the door of Apple...
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tinero

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Apple gave me the following answer. I do not understand what I should do. Can anybody translate please?

"Engineering has determined that this issue behaves as intended based on the following information:

The Sony DSC RX100 requires lens distortion correction, so either the DNG files are linearized, with correction baked in, or DNG files requiring DNG v1.3, neither of which RawCamera currently supports.

Please update your bug report to let us know if that resolves the issue for you."
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tinero

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Thanks Steve for the very competent and serious recommendation!
I already got the latest Adobe DNG Converter. I will try the work flow that you suggest, to see how the problem is generated. But it seems quite obvious to me that OSX Mavericks is the cause for the disguise.
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tinero

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Apple gave me the following answer. I do not understand what I should do. Can anybody translate please?

"Engineering has determined that this issue behaves as intended based on the following information:

The Sony DSC RX100 requires lens distortion correction, so either the DNG files are linearized, with correction baked in, or DNG files requiring DNG v1.3, neither of which RawCamera currently supports.

Please update your bug report to let us know if that resolves the issue for you."
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Chris Cox

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It means that apple can't support all DNG options, or recent DNG versions - and they believe that your files use some part of DNG that they do not support.
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PECourtejoie, Champion

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And Chris is kind, DNG 1.3 is a spec from 2009...
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Apple is saying that there raw camera functions do not support DNG variations that have had the lens-profile corrections already applied, and the raw data changed to be somewhat less raw---linearized means there are 3 colors per pixel, not the original one-color-per-pixel data from the camera sensor, nor does Apple support DNGs that have newer DNG 1.3-only specification features, whatever those would be.

Why Apple Preview can't just extract the embedded preview JPG and ignore the raw data, I'm not sure. Most programs can find the embedded preview JPG. Less programs can actually interpret the raw data, which is what Apple is implying that need to do and can't.

Can you supply one of your DNGs that Apple Preview doesn't work with by uploading it to www.dropbox.com or similar site and post the public download link to it, here? That would allow examining it to see if the file is linearized or if it is DNG Spec 1.3.
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tinero

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No, the file is there. I must have done something wrong. I'll check it and send a new link. Sorry for this.
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tinero

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New Link. I hope the Link is released. I am not familiar with Dropbox.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/saujywcc3t...
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That DNG came through ok. Can you upload to dropbox one of the DNGs that has previews on your Mac? The RX100 DNG is using DNG Version 1.4 with DNG Backward Version 1.3. I'd like to compare what the versions are of one that works.
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tinero

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Sure,
Here is another DNG from my Nikon D5200 which I did import into Lightroom as DNG and export with the same settings as the "invisible" ones from my Sony RX100.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Looking at the RX100 and D5200 DNGs with EXIFtool: the DNG Version of each is 1.4, but the DNG Backward Version of the RX100 is 1.3, while the DNG Backward version of the D5200 DNG is 1.1.

Apple says their RawCamera functions are not compatible with DNG 1.3 and higher.

I suspect the DNG Backward Version of 1.3 for the RX100 files is the issue.

How the D5200, first supported in ACR 7.3 is DNGBV 1.1 while the RX100, first supported in the previous ACR 7.2, is DNGBV 1.3 is a mystery, unless it is due to the built-in lens corrections the RX100 may have, which Apple doesn't attempt to replicate.

If you want your RX100 DNGs to have DNGBV of 1.1 you should set the LR import compatibility options to ACR 4.6. Anything higher will go up to DNGBV 1.3.

What I'm not sure if is updating your DNGs from within LR will retain this DNGBV of 1.1 or if LR automatically upgrades to DNGBV 1.3.
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tinero

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Hi Steve,

I have set the import and export setting down to camera raw 2.4, but the thumbnails of the photos are still not displayed in the file finder.

Can you give a hint which settings I need to change and where in the LR menu I can find them? I am a bit lost and also afraid that there is no solution for my problem.

Thanks again
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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It seems like I've replied to this, already, but I don't see it, here, so I'll write it, again:

I have tested with an RX100 raw and LR 5.3. If I set the DNG Import options to use ACR 4.6, and use Copy as DNG for the Import type, the resulting DNG has DNG Version 1.4 and DNG Backward Version of 1.1. Subsequent updating of the DNG Preview and Metadata as well as Exporting as DNG retain the 1.4 and 1.1 versions, so if you've tried this and Finder won't recognize the thumbnail then I don't know what else to try.

You can verify the DNGV and DNGBV using ExifTool which is available from here:
http://www.sno.phy.queensu.ca/~phil/e...
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tinero

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Thank You Steve,

I changed the imp or options to ACR 4.6 and used "Copy as DNG" for import, but the thumbnails remain blank. Is this all I have to do? Excuse me Steve, I am not a native speaker and am not sure if I did understand You properly. What do You mean with " Subsequent updating of the DNG Preview and Metadata as well as Exporting as DNG retain the 1.4 and 1.1 versions". Is this something I have to do after importing the files?

Best regards
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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There are four ways to create or update a DNG in Lightroom:

1) Import using Copy as DNG. You are doing this.
2) Library: Library / Convert Photo to DNG (if it is not a DNG).
3) Library: Metadata / Update DNG Preview & Metadata (if it is a DNG).
4) Export as DNG. You are also doing this, I think.

My comments were that if you convert to DNG using Copy as DNG during Import using ACR 4.6 as your DNG Compatibility preference, then methods 3) and 4) will retain the DNGV and DNGBV versions. I didn't try 2) because you are importing DNGs.

3) is something you can do after making changes in LR, to update the preview in the DNG so you don't have to use 4) Export a new DNG to see the updated preview.
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tinero

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Hi Steve,

I did everything form 1 through 4, but the thumbnails remain blind... :(

Would Aperture be able to display the thumbnails?
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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If you used ACR 4.6 as your DNG Import compatibility level then there's nothing more to do, I don't think.

Apple is refusing to look at thumbnails of DNGs where the raw data of the DNG wouldn't be processable by Apple programs even though the thumbnails are embedded JPGs.

Adobe does something similar, where they don't allow Bridge to show thumbnails of files that are from a camera newer than what ACR knows how to deal with.

On Windows you can get codec packs that will extract thumbnails without caring about the raw data. With Apple you're stuck with what they program, themselves, I think.

A reason not to use DNGs.
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tinero

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Hi Steve,
I am changing my habits of importing files into Lightroom. Instead of import DNG I just import the files as copy of the original photo and keep the respective original RAW format. After reworking them in Lightroom I export them in the original format again. These files are displayed in Lightroom as well as in the File Finder and seems to resolve my program.

Now I ask myself what is the advantage of DNG's and if I am loosing any benefit or functionality by keeping the original RAW format.

What is Your view on this?

Thank You!
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Are you creating XMP sidecar files automatically for your raw files, now?

In my opinion:

The main positive of DNG is that it is portable within Adobe products and can save the Adobe metadata within itself.

The main negative is that most other raw converters don't know how to deal with DNGs so you have locked yourself into Adobe-centric processing.

I don't convert anything to DNGs but do create XMP sidecar files to have most of the benefit of DNGs without the negative side effects.

I still don't understand why you export original files, either DNGs or native raws.
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tinero

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Thanks Steve,

With original files I mean the RAW files in the format as originally shooted with the respective camera. So now I don't convert the RAWs into DNG, but I keep them in the resp. RAW format as shooted with my cameras, and import them directly into Lightroom. I guess that is what you call native RAWs.

After retouching I export them in Raw. In the Lightroom menue I do select "original" for this. As a result I have the original RAW file with the attached XMP + the exported copy with the final result but no XMP. If I remove the original, the XMP file goes away with it and I just keep the copy with the final result. These choices are absolutely sufficient for me.

Steve I think that after all the chatting I have now adopted the same process that You apply. I now understand your comment "why are You exporting DNGs?"

Thank You for all the patience and advice!
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tinero

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You are right with the no need for copies... When I import the original RAW from the camera and retouch them in Lightroom, there is always a XML file attached to it. The XML file is also there when I export the files... So I can skip the export.

So I have to choose. There is no perfect solution: either DNG without thumbnails, or original RAW files with XML attachment. What would You rather use?

But, do the XML settings go along when I print modified RAW fotos? Or need I to generate a JPEG for printing?
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The XML sidecar is a copy of the settings in LR and only understood by Adobe programs. It helps if you want to open the raw file in Photoshop, so PS can understand what LR did, or if your LR catalog database gets corrupted, the XMP is a backup of what happened with a photo.

I don't use DNG because I want the possibility of opening my raw files in other raw converters, and DNGs are mostly only compatible with Adobe software.

You ask about printing. Do you mean sending files somewhere for printing or do you mean printing to a printer that is attached to your computer?

For sending somewhere else you'd need to create high-quality JPGs.

For printing on a computer-attached printer, you'd print from within LR so LR knows what the settings are and only the original raw file is needed.