Lightroom 5: ICC Table Profiles clipped shadows under OSX

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  • Problem
  • Updated 2 years ago
  • Acknowledged
  • (Edited)
Hi, I've just found a really bad issue occurring in Lr 5 (but also in all other Lightroom versions) under Mac OSX 10.9 with a calibrated monitor: dark shadows (from a value of 20 to 0) are all clipped (pure black with no detail and no textures) while the histogram remains ok, indicating NO clipped shadows at all. This issue afflics also ACR.

Photoshop for now is the only software under MAC that reproduces dark shadows correctly: Library Module shows a bit darker and shifted shadows than Ps but acceptable, Develop Module is really bad showing brutally clipped shadows (but you work in the Develop Module right?!).

The same problem occurred also in OSX 10.8 but it was related only to LUT profiles, creating a Matrix based profile problems were solved.

Now the issue occurs with both Matrix and LUT profiles, v2 and v4. There's no apparent way to make Lr working right.

Under Windows no problems at all: Bridge, Photoshop, ACR, Lr (Library Module and Develop Module) show the same correct NOT clipped shadows.

I tested 8 different Mac running 10.9 with different GPU, different monitors, different profiling Softwares (Color Eyes Display Pro, Eizo Color Navigator, BasICC Color, i1 Profiler). Same results.
I tried to change the gamma value (2.2, sRGB, L*) problems remain. I tried to change ICC version (v2, v4) problems reamain. I tried to change profile type (LUT, MATRIX) problems remain.

How can a photographer work professionally on RAW images if shadows are bad reproduced?

Why Photoshop can reproduce shadows correctly while Lr isn't able to do that?

Why this happens only on a Mac enviroment?

Is Lr based on ColorSync (that can't handle profiles correctly) while Ps isn't (because it can handle and it has no problem)?

Please Adobe, FIX IT for all professional photographers, we can’t use Lr for serious works under Mac.

Max Ramuschi
Adobe Certified Expert

p.s.: Added a 100% Crop screenshots that shows the problem, some photos are even worse...

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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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  • frustrated

Posted 5 years ago

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Jao van de Lagemaat

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Thanks. I tested it and it seems to fix the problem at least for me. Very happy.
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Thanks for following up, Jao.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Fix does not work for table gamma profiles.
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felbo

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tested and not worked for me :-(
still much darker shadows...
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felbo

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if I set Adobe 98 as monitor profile, (well, testing only..) both LR and Photoshop is 100% same. Eizo CX 240
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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You're probably using a table gamma based profile, like me, and the fix isn't working for us. Adobe has still a lot of work to do to make Lr work properly.
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felbo

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thank you Ramushi for still mention this problem, its not solved. Im using Color Navigator and Eizo OS X 10.10.1
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Hans van Eijsden

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Thank you Adobe! :)
The shadows problem is 100% fixed here, now the fun begins. I can migrate back to Lightroom. Bye bye Capture One!
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Thanks for the update, Hans.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Fix doesn't work for table gamma based profiles. Ligtroom is still unusable for users who work with professional monitors which use these kind of profiles (eizo color edge and Nec Spectraview).
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Jeffrey and Eric, the problem is NOT solved: matrix (polynomial) gamma based ICC profiles are now ok, BUT table gamma based profiles are exactly like before! Crushed black tones with no details! It seems you've found and solved one of the bugs, but not the other!

Again, with table gamma based ICC profiles, Lr shows dark, clipped shadows while Photoshop is ok.

Please moderators, change the status of this thread: it's not solved. This thread is about table based gamma profiles, and they are still not well supported.

I'm waiting for a response.
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Jeffrey Tranberry, Sr. Product Manager, Digital Imaging

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Can you share one of the profiles you're having trouble with?
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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I'm not sure what's going on here.  I had one of the profiles with table-based gamma curve.  I tested that pretty carefully (as well as the polynomial-based gamma curve) with Lr 5.7, and did not see any meaningful visual difference on my system between the two cases.  I used the DigitalColor Meter on the Mac (useful system utility) to conduct color readouts, to be sure  (sometimes eyes can be fooled, even trained ones ...).  

It is possible there is some other system configuration or setup that I'm not replicating here, that is essential to reproducing the issue, when table-based profiles are concerned.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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The issue is easily reproducible on every Mac with every table based profile, created with every profiling software. Assuming that now Library and Develop show the same shadows (this bug is fixed), you have to compare Lightroom and Photoshop to see the shadows difference. Before wiriting here that the bug has not been fixed, I retested carefully it on several Apple machines: same results with all. I used Eizo Color Navigator on my desktop Mac, and i1 Profiler on the other laptop computers. The issue is clearly evident on both my Eizo display (with Color Navigator table profile) and the LCD screen of laptops computer (with X-rite table profile). These computers have default OSX configurations. The same issue is showing on OSX 10.8, 10.9 and 10.10. If you want I can send you two table profiles (one created with EIzo and the other created with X-Rite software) and a test image.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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To be more precise: Photoshop, Bridge and ACR (now ACR seems to be ok!) show correct shadows with table profiles, but Lightroom is still showing clipped shadows.
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felbo

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to Jeffrey or Eric. Here are ICC from my system, Color Navigator 6, OSX 10.10. The ICC profile are only 4 kb?? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4...
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Andrea Riela

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I can confirm, issue not fixed on NEC Spectraview and table profiles. Please fix asap. Thank you very much
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Ok, I dug into this a little more.  All of the cases that I have seen so far with Lr 5.7 that have "too dark shadows" with table-based profiles have 1 thing in common:  they are using ICC version 4.x.  I also have examples of table-based profiles that don't have this problem, and they also have 1 thing in common:  they are using ICC version 2.x.

Therefore:   For those of you generating table-based color profiles and still experiencing issues with "too dark shadows" in Lr:  Can you please try using your color profile-building software (NEC, Eizo, X-Rite, etc.) to build "ICC version 2" profiles (instead of version 4)?
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Update: with the X-Rite table profile and soft proofing on to simulate the X-rite profile (previously soft proofing was set to simulate Adobe RGB) I have perfectly matching colors and shadows with Ps. With soft proofing off, the image in Lr remains too different.
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Is the X-Rite table profile version 2.1 or version 4.x?
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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The X-rite table profile I am talking about is the same I sent to you, which is version 2.1. With this profile I can match Ps and ACR only turning on soft proofing.

With the Eizo 2.1 table profile there's no way to have correct shadows, they are always way too dark.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Update 2: I managed to match Ps shadows with the table Eizo profile enabling soft proofing to simulate the Eizo profile in use.

To recap: I can match Ps and ACR shadows with table profiles (both eizo and x-rite) only if I activate soft proofing in the Develop module and set it to simulate the monitor profile in use. At this point it seems that if we want Lightroom to work properly we should skip Colorsync which seems to not support correctly table based profiles. Is this right?
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felbo

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I can confirm about soft proofing, its the only way to see the same in LR and Photoshop. Something is still wrong here
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felbo

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monitor contrast
I did an "weird" calibration with low contrast 2.0 cd, 51:1 contrast ratio (monitor get very low contrast)
Eizo Color navigator OSX 10.10, ICC profile 2.2
Is shadow clipping in LR even more visible then? see screenshot

If native contrast 0.2 cd Im sure the effect becomes more subtle. Perhaps most of us have native contrast and does not see the effect so easily. I usually prefer little less contrast on my Eizo, 0.3 - 0.4 cd/m2

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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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You probably have a table profile (Eizo creates this kind of profiles as default). Same behaviour here.
(Edited)
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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This problem is not solved, please change the feedback status.
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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If you are experiencing this issue, the 'workaround' for the meantime in Develop is to turn on Soft Proofing. You can set the proof profile to your display profile for normal cases, or to the desired output (e.g., print) profile for real soft proof situations. Either way, having Soft Proof enabled will force Lr to use its own internal display color management system, which avoids the issue. I know this does not help the Library module or other modules, but at least for the purposes of image editing, this should help.
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Andrea Riela

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Hi Eric,

thanks for your feedback.

Any chance to have a fix in the near future? Maybe an internal display CMS for Lr as well? Do you have something in the pipeline?

Thanks again
Andrea
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Hi Andrea,

Yes, we do have a plan for a fix, but unfortunately it won't be ready in the near future. This is why I mentioned the Soft Proof workaround, as a technique one can use in the meantime.

Eric
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Andrea Riela

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Do you think it will be available on 5.8? or on 6? any plan or early stage?
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Hi Andrea,

I'm sorry, I don't have a concrete timeframe for you at this time.

Eric
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Wojciech Brzozowski

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Lightroom 6.7 with same bug still present (macOS Sierra).Turning off "Use Graphics Processor" helps only in Develop module, but Library module still wrong.
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felbo

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I think the problem is solved now with Lightroom CC
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Andrea Riela

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Any chance to have this fixed also on Lr 5?
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Honestly... it's unlikely. They don't usually update old software. Sorry.
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Andrea Riela

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well, this is quite bad ...CC has another commercial approach that I don't like. On the other hand I've a product that pretends to work correctly with shadows and lights ... quite bad for Adobe brand don't upgrade it.
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felbo

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...more precisely: the develop mode is perfect
However, the library mode is still clipped as I can see
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Yes Finn, now Develop module is perfect, but Library module is still buggy. It seems that Library module still uses Colorsync, while Develop module now has its own CMS.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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I can't understand what's wrong between EIZO Lut profiles and Colorsync (and Lightroom 5 and Library module of CC version). Hope Library will manage color profiles like Bridge does as soon as possible. At least, now we can work correctly in Develop module.
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Jao van de Lagemaat

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Apple themselves still hasn't fixed a very similar problem in Safari introduced at Mac OS X 10.9: http://lagemaat.blogspot.com/2015/03/... and http://lagemaat.blogspot.com/2014/09/...
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Eric Chan, Camera Raw Engineer

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Thanks to all of you for reporting your findings.  Out of curiosity, are you testing Develop with the GPU acceleration option enabled in the Lr preferences?  

Thanks,
Eric
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Hello Eric, here's what I see:

on OSX 10.10.3 if you turn off GPU acceleration, everything is like in LR 5, Eizo table based ICC profiles are useless due to clipped shadows.
If you turn GPU acceleration on, the Develop module is working fine: perfect shadows just like Photoshop.

BUT every other module is still showing clipped dark shadows (Library, Slideshow etc), so if you have to show some photos to a client you can't due to this problem.

on Windows: everything is perfect, as usual.

I can't understand why you can't make Lightroom totally IDEPENDENT from Colorsync like the Bridge is. I can't stand anymore working with those problems (more than three years has passed since the first time the bug had been reported to Adobe).

Max
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felbo

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Yes, GPU acceleration is enabled

Graphics Processor Info:
AMD Radeon HD 7950 OpenGL Engine

Check OpenGL support: Passed
Vendor: ATI Technologies Inc.
Version: 4.1 ATI-1.30.5
Renderer: AMD Radeon HD 7950 OpenGL Engine
LanguageVersion: 4.10
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Andrea Riela

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All,

maybe Lr 6 will include this improvement?

Please let me know

Andrea
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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LR 6/CC was released Tuesday, and the more recent replies are talking about what is happening in LR 6/CC not LR 5.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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After some testing, here's what I see:

on OSX 10.10.3 if you turn off GPU acceleration, everything is like in LR 5, Eizo table based ICC profiles are useless due to clipped shadows.
If you turn GPU acceleration on, the Develop module is working fine: perfect shadows just like Photoshop.

BUT every other module is still showing clipped dark shadows (Library, Slideshow etc), so if you have to show some photos to a client you can't due to this problem.

on Windows: everything is perfect, as usual.

I can't understand why Adobe can't make Lightroom totally IDEPENDENT from Colorsync like the Bridge is. I can't stand anymore working with those problems (more than three years has passed since the first time the bug had been reported to Adobe). Why the Bridge is perfect (a free program that sucks) while Lr is not? Why can't Lr be used by professionists who use pro monitors with pro table ICC profiles on Mac platforms?

Max
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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The non-Develop modules are using computed previews. What happens if you recompute Standard and 1:1 previews for the clipped-shadows photos, do things look different?
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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No...
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k_gs_201305

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I would like to add something, now after following this thread for more than a year and through a number of lightroom versions.

To me this occurrence is more visible on certain cameras.
I compare my raw files between a Canon 6D and a Canon EOS M and it much more prominent on the files from the EOS M.

On those files the clipping in the shadows is huge when in library, obviously this is only visible on photos with little light.

I hoped this problm was gone, but last week I picked up my EOS M the first time in a while and I had a shock!

Please fix this. It useless to browse through any of my low-light photos and actually knowing whats good and whats not.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Really bad news: after updating to Lightroom CC 2015 the same issue does happen also on Windows platform if I turn on GPU Acceleration.

Lightroom (on Windows) with GPU off shows perfect shadows with Eizo table-based profiles in all modules.
Lightroom (on Windows) with GPU on shows clipped shadows in the Develop module, all other modules are perfect.

Lightroom (on OSX) with GPU off shows clipped shadows in all mosules with Eizo table-based profiles.
Lightroom (on OSX) with GPU on shows perfect shadows in Develop module, clipped shadows are in all other modules.

I REALLY don't know what's wrong with LR and ICC table-based profiles, now this issue shows up also on Windows. After three years since the bug first appeared on OSX, no one has fixed it...

I think it's time to fix it. Please.
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Hartmut Nörenberg

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OSX is not possible to reproduce proper blacks in Lightroom on my machine. I have tu turn GPU acceleration off and use the softproof-function.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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I switched to Windows platform to skip the bug, but now I can't use Lr CC 2015 with GPU on because of the same issue I was experiencing on OSX.

Please Eric, find the bug and solve it! At least on Windows where everything was working perfectly until CC 2015!
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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An important update: the issue described in this thread affects only Eizo users, because Color Navigator (the only software that can manage Eizo Display's internal LUT) creates ICC profiles which need "black point compensation" to work properly. If the software color management engine can't apply the black point compensation, the shadows are bad rendered.

Today no OS can do this (OSX nor Windows), no internet browsers and probably neither Adobe Camera RAW 9.1 (with GPU on) nor Lightroom 2015.1 (with GPU on) can.

Is it possible to enable the "black point compensation" Lightroom Develop Module?
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felbo

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yes, if I turn OFF black point compensation in PS, I got the same "clipped shadows" as in all modules in LR. Well, do we have to turn it OFF?
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Black...
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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no, Adobe should turn on black point compensation in Lightroom develop module.
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Hartmut Nörenberg

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The Problem still exists when GPU acceleration is tuned on. This is why even Photoshop shows clipped shadows when using Liquify with GPU acceleration turned on.
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Massimiliano Ramuschi

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Lightroom CC 2015.2, still shadows bug present: when GPU is turned on Develop Module doesn't apply black point compensation and Eizo users are experiencing black clipped shardows in Windows.

Hello Adobe? Is there anybody there? I remind you that there was no issue in Lightroom CC. The problem has been introduced in Lightroom cc 2015 and it's still present in 2015.2.

Please fix it.