Lightroom: 5.3 - Still Not Exporting Sharpening Settings

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Lightroom 5.3 is still not exporting sharpening settings despite the bug being listed as fixed in this release. Obvious and visible differences between Develop preview and Library preview - previews need to be accurate and not change. Export from Develop needs to match Develop preview. If it can render the changes correctly in the Develop preview, why can't it export them correctly? Is Adobe going to be addressing the problem in a timely manner? The threads on the topic seem to justify reasons for the differences when exporting, but honestly it is not going to remain in my workflow without working better than this. If adjustments do not export exactly as they are shown to you, the tool just doesn't work for this purpose unfortunately : /
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RM

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Posted 5 years ago

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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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The Develop preview is oversharpened unless you view at 1:1, especially with Fit or Fill view modes.

Or are you seeing that no sharpening or noise-reduction are being applied to an Export even if you max out the sliders in Develop Detail, which is what the original bug was.
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RM

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Well then perhaps this is an additional bug? I've heard the 1:1 thing before, but unfortunately that is not useful, so it sounds as if they need to correct the other modes. The Develop preview is where you are doing your edits, so therefore it needs to be accurate, even when zoomed out because that is how it will be viewed for any kind of internet use. Otherwise, there really is no use in even having a preview. Is there a better place to report a bug?
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Detail sharpening is done before the image is resized for Export while Export sharpening is done after the image is resized during Export.

Each has their place in producing your output image, and Detail sharpening is not an estimate of final Export sharpening.

For Develop when you're viewing at 1:1 you should sharpen things so real details and textures look crisper but the noise isn't overly sharpened. This 1:1 sharpening will give the Export sharpening something to bite onto, then when you Export and resize smaller, say for your screen, or a webpage, then you should add Export sharpening of Screen or Matte or Glossy at a level of High or Standard or Low.

I typically leave my Develop sharpening at the default, except I adjust the Mask slider with the Alt key held down to keep the noise from getting sharpened.

Then for Export, depending on how much smaller I am resizing I choose one of the sharpening types and levels, which a lot of times is Screen High unless the photo was quite noisy to begin with then I back off the Screen Standard or Low. Sometimes I night even use Glossy High if my photos had very little sharpness because the noise overwhelmed the small details. If I am producing just one image, rather than batch processing dozens or hundreds, then I may export several times using different Export sharpening options until things look the best.

The myriad of adjustments you have in the Detail panel in Develop is so you can finesse as much detail out of the image without noise becoming a problem. This is why the Sharpening and Noise sliders are together. The coarser adjustments in Export are because you really don't need that much finesse once the Detail sharpening is done ok.

For Develop sharpening to be "accurate" as you're demanding, LR would actually have to perform an Export operation every time you adjust something in Develop, maybe .25 or .5 a second or several seconds for huge images (i.e. D800) or slow computers, for every slider nudge or click, and you'd also need to have told LR what your Export size was beforehand and you wouldn't be able to adjust the zoom level to anything else than that size. This would require changing Detail sharpening every time you changed your Export size. This is not practical nor efficient.

If you are exporting full-resolution images without resizing smaller and they are much larger than your monitor then you'll be at the mercy of whatever gallery-hosting site or even browser-resampling method is used to display the images at their smaller size that you didn't resize to. Some gallery-hosting sites have a default sharpening they apply to all resized-smaller images--similar to LR's Export sharpening, and some even let you configure the website sharpening parameters.
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My suggestion for Adobe, to help with this confusion of Develop vs Library sharpness difference would be to make the Fit and Fill resampling algorithms slightly more sophisticated and slightly slower to avoid the severe oversharpened look at zoom non-whole-numbered zoom levels.

In the mean time, for a less oversharpened view in Develop, zoom to a whole-number zoom level rather than using Fit or Fill as you adjust the Detail sliders, but keep in mind there is no way to accurately estimate the Export sharpening without actually Exporting.
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RM

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Thanks for detailing that information, but a couple of things to your response: 1. I am not "demanding" anything here really; I'm just very surprised. This is a problem I have seen a lot of people using the newer versions of Lightroom frustrated with and complaining about -- I read a whole thread on it here already. I'm just merely pointing out that this is a function many of us need and expect to be able to successfully use the product - there is no cautionary notification with it, so you don't expect a problem. And 2. I am also not talking about the Export sharpening option. I am actually, to be specific, talking about Adjustment Brush sharpening. Adobe should take the suggestion, and enhance their algorithms for Develop, because you need to see what your image will look like at a normal view for web (not 1:1) before either, making additional edits, or exporting it. Toggling back and forth to Library view when you are in Develop to edit is not user-friendly and does not even seem to register the changes for those modes (Why have them if they are not accurate?) But I am not 100% convinced it is even applying the edits as the export shows no change.

Are you affiliated with Adobe? This forum said it was for reporting a bug, which is why I posted here, as most people seem to think this is an oversight. I think we all know now how they have programmed the views - and perhaps it was a compromise for more prosumer users, but for those of us with computers meant to handle editing, we value accuracy and efficiency more, so unfortunately it is just not meeting our needs.

I was just hoping they would acknowledge it or perhaps have a fix for it in the making. Or in the meantime, I would really love a workaround which would export my carefully edited view in Develop - which looks exactly as I want it to, but sadly no amount of sharpening seems to produce anything but a blurred export. It would be even better if the edits were able to be applied, as it really seems like they are somehow not, as it should produce a sharper image on export, or even would blow out the grain with the amount of sharpening attempted to see a result - rather it looks as if nothing was applied. Right now, I can take a screen shot and have the image I want for web, but not export it. Very frustrating.
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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There seem to be two possibilities:

1) Exported files not having ANY sharpening applied—this would be a bug if it is occurring.
2) Non-1:1 zoom Develop views looking sharper than Library or Exported views due to fast, less-accurate resampling.

My explanations are why 2) occurs. You’re wondering if 1) is occurring because you’re at least seeing 2) occur.

To demonstrate 1) is occurring without it being 2), provide a side-by-side screenshot of the Develop view at 1:1 and the same area of the Exported file at 1:1. To isolate for Develop sharpening issues, don’t do any sharpening or resizing at Export.

The 1:1 zoom of the views is important, to distinguish the differences as being the result of 1) which would be a bug or 2) which is expected and not a bug. Please provide enough context in the screenshots that it can be see that the images are 1:1 or 100% zoom.

To make a lack of Develop sharpening obvious, max out the sharpening strength or amount before doing the Export.
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Another thing that is helpful to demonstrate a bug is occurring is to supply the original test image (before exporting) and the settings you've applied that demonstrate the problem. This would let others download the try the same settings on the same image to see if they see what you're screenshots show. File sharing sites like www.dropbox.com facilitate large file distribution.
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Rob Cole

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There are too many reports of this for it not to be a bug, e.g.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/141134...

User claims exported file sharpness is the same regardless of sharpness setting in develop module and/or output sharpening.

Rob
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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People adjust sharpness in Develop to their tastes in Fit zoom mode, and of course the actual sharpness is much less, so when they look in Library or Export, they don't see any by comparison. If the person has a consumer-grade lens and is shooting low ISO or high-ISO with significant NR and exporting at 1:1 then there probably isn't going to be a lot of the Detail sharpening visible.

Maxing out the sharpening parameters and viewing at 1:1 are necessary to demonstrate an actual lack of sharpening. I'm still waiting to see this.

There are many complaints which indicates that the confusion is widespread, as is the not wanting to heed the warning about needing to be in 1:1 mode.

I expect Adobe will adjust something in the resampling algorithm for Fit and Fill, if there is something that doesn't take too many resources.
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Genesis Curiel

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Hello RM,

I am having the same issue with my Lightroom 4. I am curious if you had found any resolution to your problem.

While exporting my pictures to a thumb drive and inspecting the images, I notice that the sharpness, but the color was there, but again, no sharpness to the faces. Theres was no crisp clear picture.

Went into Lightroom and notice in the develop module the pictures were as I edited them with the sharpness, and then I toggled to the Library module and notice the sharpness was not there. I went to Adobe to contact, but went to a forum and some people have been giving some suggestion but nothing that has fixed the problem.

Please let me know what I must do to have this corrected, if you have already figured the problem.

Thank you in advance
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Are you resizing your images smaller? Are you using any Export sharpening (Screen, Matte, Glossy:Low, Standard, High)?
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Robert Wilson

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I have a similar problem not related to sharpness but related to not seeing Develop changes in Library. I've scanned some family history with hand written notes and probably "Xerox" copies of photos. My jpeg images were imported. Shadow and blackness adjusted. They look like I want in Develop but the changes don't show in Library or exports. Your problem may be larger than just sharpness. Any ideas?
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What version of LR are you using?

Are you judging things at 1:1 or 100% zoom or something smaller?

If only Library wasn't showing things correctly then I'd guess your previews were corrupted and LR wasn't able to build or read previews after you'd adjusted things, but if Export is also not showing things how you expect then maybe the view in Develop isn't accurate or you're using an older version of LR that has a problem with Detail settings making it to Exports smaller than 1/3 the original's size.
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Robert Wilson

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Thanks for a quick reply. I am using the version of Lightroom that I downloaded this week. I will check on how I am viewing when I get home. Only a single image is displayed. I have some settings maxed out. I also may need to specify black and white.
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I don't see anything that says 1:1 or 100%, but the view does make a difference. In Develop, loupe view I see the strong blacks I want with shadows, whites and backs all at 100%. When I click the magnifying glass the view enlarges and I get more white inside the areas that were solid black. When I go to view and zoom in multiple times until that option is grayed out, the image looks like the Library. I tried to use the adjustment brush but I guess since shadows is already at 100%, it can't get darker. Thanks for the lesson. I guess LR doesn't give me enough adjustment for this unusual situation. I may learn how to use my new version of Photoshop to see if that gives me the strong correction , but I've got 229 images.
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Robert Wilson

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I tried to add an image, but it didn't work
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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My e-mail notifications for the forum shows that you did add an image and apparently it did work, but the post with the image was removed.
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So your image is a mixture of black and white spots rather than continuous-tone gray that would be darkenable with LR toning.

You can use the tone-curve in LR as a makeshift threshold function by dragging the bottom left corner (blacks) to the right along the bottom. However, if your images are black and white dots then you may want to leave them that way, just make the darker tones black instead of medium gray. You could use the blur function in PS to convert alternating black and white dots into gray that can then be darkened, but that will likely reduce the resolution of fine details, so leaving things alone may be better than blurring.

You should turn on your Zoom slider/display using the triangle/arrowhead at the bottom right below the Loupe display, and put a checkmark next to more things including Zoom:
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Robert Wilson

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I had gray and white. This was a "xerox" copy of a "xerox" copy that was made in 1992. Basic sliders didn't darken the gray enough, but your tip about using tone-curve is what I was looking for, and now I know that magnification makes a difference. I found the Zoom function too. Thanks for all your help. I look forward to learning more and getting back to my other photos. I feel great about my first experience with this forum.
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Rob Cole

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Question - which one is it?

A. Lightroom 5.6 has no bug, but behaves in a fashion which some consider non-optimal, since they want to see what reduced-size exported output will look like whilst adjusting sharpening and/or noise reduction, and you can't, or at least not very well..
B. Lightroom has a bug, in some cases - it's simply not applying detail settings and/or output sharpening.
C. Both of the above (please explain).
D. None of the above (please explain).

Answer: ____ .

~R.
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It was a gray-and-white pointlized (toner dark spots mixed with light paper fibers) image which changes darkness based on the scale and accuracy of the rendering.

The adjustments being done were setting Blacks and Shadows to -100% with the problem that things looking dark enough in Develop Fill-view but not as dark in Library/Export reduced-sized versions.

The solution was to view the image at higher-zoom to see the pointilization and understand that it wasn't all dark pixels, and then using the tone curve to darken even the light-gray pixels between the darker-gray pixels, almost a threshold function, so there was such an overwhelming number of black pixels that remained dark enough even when accurately averaged together.

I don't know what speed-up the Develop preview uses, but a median with only a little more than 50% more dark than light pixels would explain what was being seen.
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Rob Cole

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Thanks Steve.

Yeah, it seems to me that a surprisingly high number of people lately have been claiming it's B, but then resist supplying the information to back their claim, so it's hard not to assume A. I mean, we know it's A in a lot of cases, but until somebody comes forth with requisite "proof" of B, I guess we have to assume it's A in all cases.

Summary: Presumably, Lightroom is working as designed/intended, even if it entails a bit of "guesswork" when trying to match exported output with develop (or library) view.

~R.
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People want to adjust sharpness in Fit view in Develop and not see a noticeable difference anywhere else, Library: Export, OS viewers, online galleries, etc.
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Rob Cole

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I get that, but often the topic which is the subject of this thread gets mixed into the discussion, which confuses the issue(s).

In my opinion, the two issues "not exporting sharpening settings" and "fit view isn't same as export view" should be kept separate as much as possible.
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"Not exporting sharpening settings" (this at least used to happen) and "Develop Fit not being the same as Library or Export" (this always occurs to some degree) are specific cases of "Develop and Export not looking the same" where this general case is what I assume the starting point to be, and then ask the critical question about comparing at 1:1 to separate which of the two more specific possibilities we're dealing with, because Develop-Fit not being accurate always occurs and can mask an actual bug of Detail settings not being exported, so until the 1:1 comparison has been settled I don't ask about turning up or off the sharpening and noise-reduction settings.

Unless someone has taken the time in their initial message to give 1:1 screenshots showing a difference, I don't assume they've diagnosed the problem correctly, despite whatever the title of the thread says.

If the discussion ever gets to the point where there are 1:1 screenshots that show a difference or the user refuses to provide them, then I ask for an original file, so I can test, preferably a DNG with embedded settings.

Usually that request is also ignored if the request for 1:1 screenshots was ignored, but if it is not and my Export also doesn't seem have settings applied to it then there is likely a bug in LR. If my screenshots don't show a problem but theirs do, then there is a miscommunication or misunderstanding about the screenshots or there might be something environmental on their system, corrupted preferences, corrupted previews, hard-disk errors, an export plug-in being used, etc, that is preventing LR from exporting things as expected.
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Rob Cole

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Got it, but also, as you know, bugs may be system dependent, so if you can't reproduce a bug with their file, it doesn't mean there isn't one. Of course, if you can reproduce, it does mean there is one ;-}.

Anyway, there are two distinct issues ("bug where settings aren't applied" vs. "no-bug, but non-optimal behavior"), and it's worth making the distinction whenever possible, to avoid confusion, in my opinion.

Cheers,
Rob
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Robert Wilson

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I said it was a recent download of LR, but to confirm, I was using LR 5.6. Thanks again Steve.
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Rob Cole

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This thread opens with the claim:

1. Lightroom 5.3 still not exporting sharpen settings (which makes it sound like previous bug was not fixed in some or all cases).

but then quickly transitions into more of a claim:

2. View in Lightroom not matching export (which wouldn't necessarily be a bug..).

I see this as two distinct issues, and I implore users to try and identify which they're talking about. There has been a LOT of confusion over this issue (especially since Lightroom has had such bugs in the past).

My .02:
* If you think there is a bug, then file a bug (problem) report..
* If there's no bug, but you want it to work differently, then submit a feature request ("idea") instead, and don't make it sound like a bug..

Rob
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Rob Cole

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Simplified summary:

How Lr should work:
* develop module detail settings are applied upon export, then image is resized and sharpened according to output sharpen settings.

*** Note: the smaller your export (relative to original), the less develop sharpen settings matter, and the more output sharpen settings matter.

When viewing an image, how it looks at non-1:1 zooms (i.e. anything other than 100%) depends on the viewer (some sharpen, some soften..), and so evaluation should always be done using zoom ratio of 1:1 (100%).

Again: develop module sharpen settings should have some impact unless output size is much smaller than original size, in which case output sharpening is mandatory if you want sharp output.

So if develop module sharpen settings have no impact at original to "moderately reduced" output sizes, there's a bug. Likewise, if output sharpen settings have no impact - there's a bug..

And if develop module sharpening is having it's programmed/intended effect, and so is output sharpening, but you are not happy with difference in Lr view vs. out-of-Lr view, then there is no bug - you just want it to work differently. Don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to invalidate such desires, but it's worth knowing how it's supposed to work, and whether it's working that way or not..

Rob
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adrian arcibal

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Hello everyone!
I have read the whole thread but I do not seem to have found a solution to this bug. It seems impossible that Adobe can not fix this bug. And I do not understand why only some people have this problem.

I have the 5.6 version.
I try to reinstall all windows and all Adobe suite...I hope something will change..:(
any suggestions?

A.
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Rob Cole

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My opinion? Adobe thinks they've already fixed it, and so all the claims that they haven't are like the boy who cried wolf - they fall on deaf ears by now.

Sorry if this seems harsh, but seriously - if there is a bug, consider filing a separate report - instead of piggy-backing off this one, which really has more to do with fit view resizing algorithm than a bug.

When you do, include enough info to PROVE there is a REAL BUG, literally..

Or, are you too just wishing it worked differently, and you're aware there is no real bug?
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adrian arcibal

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First example during optimal viewing for work:
Adapted. You can see the exported file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lg1xjp20ivm...

Comparison of file:
View at 100% in Lr >> Exported file open in Ps
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8p9qoq002dy...

I think is a bug because also in 1:1 view in Lr, if I switch Develope/Library I see a little change in the pixel.

However..
I think it's uncomfortable have a fake display in development mode with zoom adapted to window..

thanks...
A.
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Rob Cole

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So, "optimal viewing for work" means "reduced well below 1:1" right?

Optimal viewing for sharpening is 1:1, period, no more, no less. I mean, you may want to do it in a reduced view, but as you know now, it won't be accurate.

What you've got is:
* an extremely oversharpened image.
* showing you a sharp image in develop module reduced view
* exporting a reduced copy which looks less sharp.
* and probably and perhaps most importantly - something wrong with icc profile and/or monitor profile handling - the export is showing dulled tone and color, which is a contrast/clarity thing, not a true sharpening thing.

Other than that, what I see is exactly what is expected, and Lightroom is functioning as programmed/intended (sharpening-wise) - there is no bug.

PS - if you want reduce size exports to be extremely sharp, set output sharpening to "High" - that should do it. Note: result will not be exactly the same as what you saw in develop module at reduced view - that's just how it is.. If you don't like it that way, then file a feature request for it to work differently - but be clear: it's not a bug, not by Adobe's definition anyway.
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adrian arcibal

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ok..understand..
I'll try to fix color setting on my monitor..
I tried to export the images as large as the "optimal viewing for work"
https://www.dropbox.com/s/id7ksh1tkvn...
so ..looks better
But if:
export the images in full size and after I open it in PS and set the hight to 590 px, sharpness is little less..and also light and shadow..
:/
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Rob Cole

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You're getting there..

Note: most viewers soften when zooming out (like Lightroom's library module, and windows picture viewer..), so if you export big, then view small the quality is generally degraded, and image is less sharp. So in general, you want to export the *smallest* size which is big enough for the *largest* view you want to be able to see, and be sure to use output sharpening commensurate with your taste/purpose. Develop's fit view is *trying* to do you a favor by showing you when photo has extreme sharpening applied, maybe to the point of somewhat over-doing it, which is why it's hard to match when exporting. Exporting at reduced size, and/or viewing exports zoomed out always softens, unless you apply output sharpening, and/or your viewer has built-in reduction sharpening..
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Steve Sprengel, Champion

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Here is a short summary about sharpening in Lightroom:
http://www.image-space.com/Landscape_...

Here is a longer 3-part series on sharpening in Lightroom:
http://laurashoe.com/2011/08/21/sharp...

The basic idea is to sharpen things at 1:1 so they look OK AT 1:1, with the edges being sharpened a little extra and the plain areas, like a blue sky which has no fine texture, showing very little sharpening. You control the sharpening of only edges with the Mask slider.

Then sharpen again after resizing to the precise dimensions of the output, either the monitor size for computer viewing or the paper-size x pixels-per-inch/cm and set LR's sharpening to screen for monitor output and paper type for printed output. Sometimes I use one of the paper-type settings for screen viewing because they sharpening a little more.

If you want to upload your original to dropbox, preferably an Exported DNG with your settings applied, then I and maybe others can give our take on what the sharpening should be at each step.
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Khoa Bui

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same problem on Lightroom 2015 and lightroom 6
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Daniela Leigh

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We have exactly the same problem and we are tearing our grey hairs out  Since we change to creative lightroom , the photos have not been exporting the same way.  We never had a problem before.  the photos lose their colour sharpness there is slight fuzziness,  from a stunning picture ( we do property photography) it downgrades.  Surely Adobe needs to be aware that there is a major problem with exporting. We never had this problem before!