Lightroom Classic: Presets including raw profiles are sometimes available for non-raws, sometimes not

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Presets including raw profiles via Treatment & Profile are sometimes visible in the Presets panel when a non-raw is selected, sometimes not.  This is confusing.

- Presets including DCP raw profiles are visible for non-raws (Adobe Standard and all Camera Matching profiles).

- Presets including enhanced raw profiles are not visible for non-raws (Adobe Color, Monochrome, Landscape, Neutral, Portrait, Vivid).

This is clearly inconsistent behavior, since none of these raw profiles can actually be applied to non-raws.  LR should either hide all such presets for non-raws or make them all available, ignoring the raw profile when the preset is applied to a non-raw.

I think it should make them all available for non-raws, given this use case: People often click the Check All button when creating a preset.  When they round-trip a raw to Photoshop and get back a TIFF, they expect that such a preset should be applicable to the TIFF as much as to a raw, not remembering or knowing they clicked Treatment and Profile.

If LR makes none of these raw-profile-containing presets available for non-raws, then that will create another most frequent FAQ, "Why can't I see my preset?", analogous to "Where are the lens profiles?".
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Posted 6 days ago

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Robert Somrak

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I can confirm this behavior on Lr 7.3 and osx 10.13.4
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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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Hello John,

In general, if the preset/profile is based on a camera model specific DCP then the preset will not show up for other images.
Hope this resolves the confusion.
Feel free to ask more questions regarding this.

Thanks,
Akshay
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Robert Somrak

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Akshay
I created a preset with "Adobe Monochrome" and it shows in the Preset Panel for Canon 5D Mark 2 and Canon 5D Classic RAW files but NOT for JPGs from the same cameras so it must be more than just Model Specific.  
(Edited)
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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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More generic scenario- Preset having profiles will only show up for the negatives that support those profiles.
Since Adobe Monochrome profile is not available for Jpeg the preset is also not available.
Did I cleared your confusion ? Let me if there is some context or info I  am missing.
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Robert Somrak

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Thanks for the clarification
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"In general, if the preset/profile is based on a camera model specific DCP then the preset will not show up for other images"

In fact, it's the other way around. If an Adobe engineer is getting confused about this, imagine the confusion of the typical user!

Presets including camera-specific DCP profiles do show up for non-raws. For example, a preset including Adobe Standard or Camera Landscape does appear for a JPEG.  (These profiles are implemented as the original .dcp files, built for each camera.)

It's the presets that include profiles that aren't  camera-specific, e.g. Adobe Color or Adobe Vivid, that disappear for JPEGs and other non-raws.  (These profiles are implemented as the new enhanced profiles in .xmp files and apply to all cameras.)

See the screenshots below.

"Since Adobe Monochrome profile is not available for Jpeg the preset is also not available."

None of these raw profiles can be applied to a JPEG or other non-raw.  Yet presets that include some of them (e.g. Adobe Standard of Camera Landscape) are available for non-raws, while presets that include others of them (e.g. Adobe Color, Adobe Monochrome, or Adobe Vivid) are not available.

This distinction has no usefulness for the user.  If Adobe Standard and Camera Landscape can appear in JPEG presets, why shouldn't Adobe Color or Adobe Monochrome?

As I already stated in my original feature request, it would be best if LR simply ignored the presence of raw profiles in presets when applied to non-raws (as it currently does with Adobe Standard).

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I made presets including a number of the raw profiles. Here they are when a raw photo is selected:



And here's what appears when a JPEG is selected:

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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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I am sorry if I created more confusion.
Adobe RAW profiles include ( Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Monochrome, Adobe Portrait, Adobe Vivid) these profiles and presets including these profiles are only applicable to RAW images.
Adobe Standard as an exception was the old profiles that use to come up with previous versions of Lightroom, it's behavior remains unchanged only that now it is not the default profiles that gets applied during Import.
Does that resolves your query?
I understand your feature request and will consider it further.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"Adobe RAW profiles include ( Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Monochrome, Adobe Portrait, Adobe Vivid) these profiles and presets including these profiles are only applicable to RAW images. Adobe Standard as an exception was the old profiles that use to come up with previous versions of Lightroom, it's behavior remains unchanged only that now it is not the default profiles that gets applied during Import."

This doesn't explain why Camara Landscape and Camera Standard can be included in profiles, even though they are also raw profiles that can't be applied to non-raws.
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Cameron Rad

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Right click the profile, hold alt/option and click Rename Profile. You'll see this at the bottom:

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Robert Somrak

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Thanks for that tip.  I created a couple profiles for extending the Highlight/Shadow on HDR and they showed up all the time and now they only show up on HDR photos. The medium extended range works pretty good on HDR photos but the large range so far is just too much.  The extended highlights sliders work great.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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This options dialog is part of Camera Raw and not available with LR. It's a useful workaround for advanced users, but most LR users have never used Camera Raw.  And it won't avoid the confusion of users not understanding why they can't see their presets and why some raw presets are visible and others are not.
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Max Wendt, Employee

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This behavior is intentional - presets specifying DCP profiles—such as Adobe Standard, the camera matching profiles (with names starting with "Camera"), and third party DCP profiles—are not filtered out on non-raw files. This is to not destroy the workflows established in previous versions of the software which didn't do any preset filtering at all.

In the future, we may add a preference to also hide presets that apply DCP based profiles on non-raw images rather than just ignoring the profile setting.
(Edited)
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Cameron Rad

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I have a few technical questions/suggestions about the LUT implementation with profiles. A few small modifications would make the use of LUTs far easier and intuitive. Mainly settings dealing with color space transforms and possibly the option of an Adobe Linear profile. Is there a person to contact regarding this? I've posted about it on the adobe blog and on the boards here (i think i was logged into a different account).
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I understand the logic of filtering out presets with some raw profiles, but that design is surely going to cause needless confusion and frustration.

A similar user interface causes one of the most frequent questions on the user-to-user forum: "Where are the lens profiles?".   Nothing in the user interface tells the user that the presets or lens profiles are being filtered when the current photo is a non-raw.  (And the type of the photo is hidden in Develop -- users often think they're editing a raw when in fact they're editing a JPEG.)

Two better alternative designs:

- Don't filter any presets containing raw profiles.  LR has gone all these years with presets containing raw profiles, and I don't recall seeing any complaints or confusion on the forums about that.  There's no problem to be fixed -- LR should just continue to ignore the contained raw profile when applying the preset to a non-raw.

- Give a clear visual indication in the user interface that presets are being filtered.  E.g. at the top of each group containing filtered presets, include this message in grey italics:

Some presets containing raw profiles are not shown because the current photo isn't raw

Or show the presets in the list but greyed out, and if the user tries to click on one, pop up the message:

This preset contains a raw profile that can't be applied to the current photo, which isn't a raw photo.
(Edited)