Lightroom Classic: Presets including raw profiles are sometimes available for non-raws, sometimes not

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Presets including raw profiles via Treatment & Profile are sometimes visible in the Presets panel when a non-raw is selected, sometimes not.  This is confusing.

- Presets including DCP raw profiles are visible for non-raws (Adobe Standard and all Camera Matching profiles).

- Presets including enhanced raw profiles are not visible for non-raws (Adobe Color, Monochrome, Landscape, Neutral, Portrait, Vivid).

This is clearly inconsistent behavior, since none of these raw profiles can actually be applied to non-raws.  LR should either hide all such presets for non-raws or make them all available, ignoring the raw profile when the preset is applied to a non-raw.

I think it should make them all available for non-raws, given this use case: People often click the Check All button when creating a preset.  When they round-trip a raw to Photoshop and get back a TIFF, they expect that such a preset should be applicable to the TIFF as much as to a raw, not remembering or knowing they clicked Treatment and Profile.

If LR makes none of these raw-profile-containing presets available for non-raws, then that will create another most frequent FAQ, "Why can't I see my preset?", analogous to "Where are the lens profiles?".
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Posted 4 months ago

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Robert Somrak, Champion

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I can confirm this behavior on Lr 7.3 and osx 10.13.4
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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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Hello John,

In general, if the preset/profile is based on a camera model specific DCP then the preset will not show up for other images.
Hope this resolves the confusion.
Feel free to ask more questions regarding this.

Thanks,
Akshay
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Robert Somrak, Champion

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Akshay
I created a preset with "Adobe Monochrome" and it shows in the Preset Panel for Canon 5D Mark 2 and Canon 5D Classic RAW files but NOT for JPGs from the same cameras so it must be more than just Model Specific.  
(Edited)
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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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More generic scenario- Preset having profiles will only show up for the negatives that support those profiles.
Since Adobe Monochrome profile is not available for Jpeg the preset is also not available.
Did I cleared your confusion ? Let me if there is some context or info I  am missing.
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Robert Somrak, Champion

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Thanks for the clarification
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"In general, if the preset/profile is based on a camera model specific DCP then the preset will not show up for other images"

In fact, it's the other way around. If an Adobe engineer is getting confused about this, imagine the confusion of the typical user!

Presets including camera-specific DCP profiles do show up for non-raws. For example, a preset including Adobe Standard or Camera Landscape does appear for a JPEG.  (These profiles are implemented as the original .dcp files, built for each camera.)

It's the presets that include profiles that aren't  camera-specific, e.g. Adobe Color or Adobe Vivid, that disappear for JPEGs and other non-raws.  (These profiles are implemented as the new enhanced profiles in .xmp files and apply to all cameras.)

See the screenshots below.

"Since Adobe Monochrome profile is not available for Jpeg the preset is also not available."

None of these raw profiles can be applied to a JPEG or other non-raw.  Yet presets that include some of them (e.g. Adobe Standard of Camera Landscape) are available for non-raws, while presets that include others of them (e.g. Adobe Color, Adobe Monochrome, or Adobe Vivid) are not available.

This distinction has no usefulness for the user.  If Adobe Standard and Camera Landscape can appear in JPEG presets, why shouldn't Adobe Color or Adobe Monochrome?

As I already stated in my original feature request, it would be best if LR simply ignored the presence of raw profiles in presets when applied to non-raws (as it currently does with Adobe Standard).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made presets including a number of the raw profiles. Here they are when a raw photo is selected:



And here's what appears when a JPEG is selected:

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Akshay Mathur, Employee

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I am sorry if I created more confusion.
Adobe RAW profiles include ( Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Monochrome, Adobe Portrait, Adobe Vivid) these profiles and presets including these profiles are only applicable to RAW images.
Adobe Standard as an exception was the old profiles that use to come up with previous versions of Lightroom, it's behavior remains unchanged only that now it is not the default profiles that gets applied during Import.
Does that resolves your query?
I understand your feature request and will consider it further.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"Adobe RAW profiles include ( Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, Adobe Monochrome, Adobe Portrait, Adobe Vivid) these profiles and presets including these profiles are only applicable to RAW images. Adobe Standard as an exception was the old profiles that use to come up with previous versions of Lightroom, it's behavior remains unchanged only that now it is not the default profiles that gets applied during Import."

This doesn't explain why Camara Landscape and Camera Standard can be included in profiles, even though they are also raw profiles that can't be applied to non-raws.
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Cameron Rad

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Right click the profile, hold alt/option and click Rename Profile. You'll see this at the bottom:

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Robert Somrak, Champion

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Thanks for that tip.  I created a couple profiles for extending the Highlight/Shadow on HDR and they showed up all the time and now they only show up on HDR photos. The medium extended range works pretty good on HDR photos but the large range so far is just too much.  The extended highlights sliders work great.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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This options dialog is part of Camera Raw and not available with LR. It's a useful workaround for advanced users, but most LR users have never used Camera Raw.  And it won't avoid the confusion of users not understanding why they can't see their presets and why some raw presets are visible and others are not.
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Max Wendt, Employee

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This behavior is intentional - presets specifying DCP profiles—such as Adobe Standard, the camera matching profiles (with names starting with "Camera"), and third party DCP profiles—are not filtered out on non-raw files. This is to not destroy the workflows established in previous versions of the software which didn't do any preset filtering at all.

In the future, we may add a preference to also hide presets that apply DCP based profiles on non-raw images rather than just ignoring the profile setting.
(Edited)
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Cameron Rad

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I have a few technical questions/suggestions about the LUT implementation with profiles. A few small modifications would make the use of LUTs far easier and intuitive. Mainly settings dealing with color space transforms and possibly the option of an Adobe Linear profile. Is there a person to contact regarding this? I've posted about it on the adobe blog and on the boards here (i think i was logged into a different account).
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I understand the logic of filtering out presets with some raw profiles, but that design is surely going to cause needless confusion and frustration.

A similar user interface causes one of the most frequent questions on the user-to-user forum: "Where are the lens profiles?".   Nothing in the user interface tells the user that the presets or lens profiles are being filtered when the current photo is a non-raw.  (And the type of the photo is hidden in Develop -- users often think they're editing a raw when in fact they're editing a JPEG.)

Two better alternative designs:

- Don't filter any presets containing raw profiles.  LR has gone all these years with presets containing raw profiles, and I don't recall seeing any complaints or confusion on the forums about that.  There's no problem to be fixed -- LR should just continue to ignore the contained raw profile when applying the preset to a non-raw.

- Give a clear visual indication in the user interface that presets are being filtered.  E.g. at the top of each group containing filtered presets, include this message in grey italics:

Some presets containing raw profiles are not shown because the current photo isn't raw

Or show the presets in the list but greyed out, and if the user tries to click on one, pop up the message:

This preset contains a raw profile that can't be applied to the current photo, which isn't a raw photo.
(Edited)
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Yet another person who can't understand why some of his presets aren't appearing when editing JPEGs: https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2493603
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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A workaround is to modify the preset to uncheck Treatment & Profile so that the enhanced profile isn't included.  But unfortunately, yet another preset bug makes that impossible when the preset includes any of the Color settings:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/automaticly-checking-treatment-profile-box-wh...

The workaround in that case is to remove the Treatment & Profile from the presets using the free Fix Presets plugin.
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Enna Bartlett

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Lightroom Classic: Presets not showing.

Hi,

Originally posted here: https://forums.adobe.com/message/10397349

I'm having trouble with some presets in my LR. I created a preset and it all works great, however, in the develop module on some images it seems that this preset is not available to use (it just doesn't show up in the list). I think it may be due to the type of image I'm trying to edit - I created the preset for an uncompressed RAW image I was working on, and it shows up just fine for any other uncompressed RAW images, but compressed RAW (even from the same camera) it doesn't show up, nor for any jpegs that I may have in my catalog. Is there any reason why this would be the case and is there a workaround so that I can use this preset on everything else in my library?

 

Shooting with a mix of a Sony a7, a7rii, rx100 and my phone.

 

Lightroom Classic version: 7.3.1 [ 1167660 ]

License: Creative Cloud

Language setting: en

Operating system: Windows 10 - Home Premium Edition

Version: 10.0.16299

Application architecture: x64

System architecture: x64

Logical processor count: 8

Processor speed: 2.3 GHz

Built-in memory: 8078.8 MB

Real memory available to Lightroom: 8078.8 MB

Real memory used by Lightroom: 2267.7 MB (28.0%)

Virtual memory used by Lightroom: 2406.7 MB

GDI objects count: 864

USER objects count: 2190

Process handles count: 2952

Memory cache size: 531.9MB

Internal Camera Raw revision: 933

Maximum thread count used by Camera Raw: 5

Camera Raw SIMD optimization: SSE2,AVX

Camera Raw virtual memory: 1677MB / 4039MB (41%)

Camera Raw real memory: 1697MB / 8078MB (21%)

System DPI setting: 96 DPI

Desktop composition enabled: Yes

Displays: 1) 1920x1080

Input types: Multitouch: No, Integrated touch: No, Integrated pen: No, External touch: No, External pen: No, Keyboard: No

 

 

Graphics Processor Info:

DirectX: AMD Radeon HD 8800M Series (8.17.10.1404)
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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My reply to your original post:

This confusing behavior happens because the problem presets include an enhanced profile (e.g. Adobe Color, Adobe Landscape, etc.).  According to an Adobe employee, this is by design. If you find this confusing, please  add your constructive opinion to this problem report in the official Adobe feedback forum: Lightroom Classic: Presets including raw profiles are sometimes available for non-raws, sometimes not | Photoshop Family...

A workaround is to modify the preset to uncheck Treatment & Profile so that the enhanced profile isn't included.  But unfortunately, yetanother preset bug makes that impossible when the preset includes any of the Color settings:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/automaticly-checking-treatment-prof ile-box-wh...

The workaround in that case is to remove the Treatment & Profile from the presets using the free Fix Presets plugin.

(Edited)
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Another person confused by this behavior: 
https://forums.adobe.com/message/10441151#10441151
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Another person horribly confused by this behavior: 
https://forums.adobe.com/thread/2502681
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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And another person who wasted time due to this confusion:
https://forums.adobe.com/message/10459499
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Riccardo83

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I can confirm this bad behaviour!
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Another person confused by the behavior: 
https://forums.adobe.com/message/10502791#10502791
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Syncasta Darko

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Presets available for certain photos only.

I have about 200 images in quick collection. If I open one in photoshop for a minor touch up, save it, and it opens the newly edited copy in lightroom, the preset(s) I created within the hour disappear for only the new edited image. They become available if I scroll to the next image but disappear again when I go to the newly edited image. 
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Ganesh, Lightroom Engineer

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Presets available for certain photos only (merging).

@Syncasta Thanks for raising the concern. We are aware of this behavior. As Johan mentioned above if a Preset refers to Profile that is limited to specific format (RAW in your case) it will not be shown in the Presets list when other format image is selcted. We will fix this behaviour. 

Thanks,
Ganesh

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Presets available for certain photos only.
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Cristen Gillespie

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Am I not understanding quite what people want here? I love the fact that I can create a Profile starting with Adobe Standard and a raw file, bring in a .cube file, and create a profile that works with my JPEGs, too. Is this what people find confusing that I find liberating?

Or are they saying they just don't like it if Profiles disappear when they can't be applied to a JPEG? I will be very unhappy if I can't continue to create Profiles with Adobe Standard and use them on JPEGs. I use Camera Raw, not LR, but since they operate together, I hate to see that after reading the SDK and choosing Standard to create the profile, I'm now going to be shut out because some people find it "confusing" at first.

I found it confusing, too, but I don't anymore, and I do use my .cube profiles on my JPEG files. To have to create one set for JPEG and another for raw seems a big burdensome. More than a bit.
(Edited)
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Cameron Rad

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I agree.  It would be a shame if this behavior is changed and i'd have to rebuild all my profiles and specify raw or jpeg instead of just using adobe standard for compatibility.

I read the SDK and initially found that part that confusing to be honest. But after rereading it made sense. I think a more condensed FAQ or note should be added to the SDK that if you want the profile/preset to be compatible with all types of images (jpeg/raw) you need to use Adobe Standard as the base profile. I know that information is mentioned in the sdk but it could be more concise and not as in depth of explanation of the interaction.

(Edited)