Lightroom Classic: Sort by capture time bug (scans and raws)

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This conversation has been merged. Please reference the main conversation: Lightroom: Still inconsistent capture date/time for photos and videos

Not sure whether this is relevant, but a similar problem occurs with scanned tiff images interspersed with camera taken pictures. In other words, scan some pictures as tiff and import Imp light room, then import pictures .ARW files, and then scan some more pictures as tiff. The new tiff images cluster with the older tiff files, and will come before the ARW files. In this situation there is no THM file.

Note: This conversation was created from a reply on: Lightroom Classic: Sort by capture time bug.
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Steven Seelig

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Posted 3 months ago

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John R. Ellis, Champion

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The .thm sidecar file isn't the cause of the problem with the .mp4 -- it's a possible solution, since it contains the correct capture date expessed in local time, while the .mp4 contains the capture date in UTC (which is what LR is currently using).
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Regarding your scans, a long-standing bug with photos not containing any metadata capture date (e.g. scans) was a fixed a few versions ago.  You can understand what might happening more easily by showing the capture date under thumbnails in grid view -- go to View > View Options > Cell Extras.  If you post a screenshot of the misordered thumbnails with the capture dates under them, that will make clearer what the issue might be.
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Steven Seelig

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I have attached a screen shot of misordered ARW and MP4 files.  The date and time are correct, but the sort sequence is wrong....
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Steven Seelig

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@ John...and here is a screenshot of a mixture of scanned (tiff) and camera pictures with the date/time showing...  the sort sequence is incorrect based on the date/time showing.  The data/time shown is accurate based on what I was doing.
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Can you upload to Dropbox sample TIFFs and raws that show this problem?  This is almost certainly a different problem from the one with MP4s.  There was a long-standing bug of many years with scans, which was finally fixed a couple of versions ago.  It would be good to narrow down your problem to see if that bug has resurfaced or your getting hit by something else.
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Steven Seelig

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@ John.... i am still very confused.  In the first example I provided the pictures where imported into LR from my camera card and the capture data/time as displayed in the screen shot are correct based on what I actually did.  There is a THM file in my import folder, but the times displayed are correct, but the sort is still incorrect.  Some how we are not understanding each other.  Where is the incorrect date/time data that lightroom is using?

For the tiff files, a slight different group of pictures, but the same issue is present.  The sort does not sort my capture date, but somehow includes file extension.

Here is the link to the tiff files
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gyz0g5gv5y6emdd/AADymmJeDT1MrIWlJC79QDlNa?dl=0
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Smit Keniya, Employee

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Hi Steve,

I have not been able to reproduce the issue with the files you have shared on Windows10 or macOS.

Could you confirm you are sorting using Capture Time in Library grid?

Thanks,
Smit Keniya
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Steven Seelig

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Smit... you are right. When I created the dropbox folder, I just exported the original files from lightroom and strangely, it changed the time stamp on the tiff files, but not the .arw files.

So, I just did another test by dragging/dropping the files into dropbox and when I loaded them into LR the capture sequence was ok.  Very strange.  

I have attached a screenshot of the original library and the second library after drag/drop to dropbox.

I will also tell you that if one goes to Metadata>Edit Capture Time and without changing anything, but select the 'Change' button, it also corrects the sort problem.  
  
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"In the first example I provided the pictures where imported into LR from my camera card and the capture data/time as displayed in the screen shot are correct based on what I actually did.  There is a THM file in my import folder, but the times displayed are correct, but the sort is still incorrect.  Some how we are not understanding each other.  Where is the incorrect date/time data that lightroom is using?"

For every photo, LR stores multiple capture-time fields internally in the catalog.  Some parts of LR (e.g. thumbnail display) use one field, other parts (e.g. sorting) use another field.  Until 7.1 and 7.2, LR did not always ensure that all the fields had the same value. This became apparent when you imported scans or videos missing capture time in their video data -- LR would set one of the capture-time fields to the file's last-modified time, but not all of the fields.  Then LR would behave very inconsistently, with sorting not always corresponding to what was displayed under thumbnails, which didn't always correspond with the Metadata panel.  This bug was fixed in 7.1/7.2:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

These are precisely the symptoms you are observing with the MP4s and scans. But the symptoms have two different causes.

In the case of MP4s with THM sidecars, the presence of the sidecar causes LR to ignore both the MP4 and the sidecar when reading the video dimensions and the capture date, and the MP4 ends up with inconsistent capture-time fields for the video, with one field set to the file's last-modified date and the others set to who knows what.  The root cause of the bug is LR's confusion over the presence of the THM sidecar -- either it should use the sidecar correctly or not at all.  The workaround is to simply remove the sidecar, and then you'll end up with sorting that is consistent with what's shown under the thumbnail, and correct dimensions shown in the Metadata panel.  But you'll have to use the Edit Capture Time command to shift the capture-time from UTC to the desired time zone.

In the case of scans, the root cause must be something else, since no THM sidecars are involved.  I'm afraid that some version of the original bug may have resurfaced, but examining your original files will clarify that.
(Edited)
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Steven Seelig

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The multiple fields that store date/time, some visible to me and some not visible, could readily explain the phenomena, particularly if Metadata>Edit Capture Time>Change writes the same correct data to all of the visible and invisible data fields.
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"I will also tell you that if one goes to Metadata>Edit Capture Time and without changing anything, but select the 'Change' button, it also corrects the sort problem."

That's the long-time workaround for the scans capture time bug that was fixed in 7.1/7.2: 
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

Can you please do Help > System Info and report the exact LR version number shown?
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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"So, I just did another test by dragging/dropping the files into dropbox and when I loaded them into LR the capture sequence was ok.  Very strange."

Did you first import these TIFFs into your catalog prior to version 7.1 or 7.2?  The fix in 7.1/7.2 doesn't affect scans that were already imported into the catalog by prior versions of LR.  The workaround for such scans is what you've already discovered: Select all the photos, do Metadata > Edit Capture Time, and click Change All.
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Steven Seelig

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@ John.  I started the scan imports on April 23, 2018.  Not sure which version of LR I was using at that time, but I update shortly after updates become available..

Below is the System Info dialog box
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Using the TIFFs and ARW from your Dropbox folder, I'm not able to reproduce the problem either. I suspect that these TIFFs were imported using a version of LR that was earlier than 7.2, and thus they had their catalog capture-time fields set inconsistently.  

If you encounter this again, be sure to save the affected files directly from their folders, not by exporting from LR, and share them here.  
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Smit Keniya, Employee

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We can easily validate this.

Steve, could you createa new catalog and import the original TIFF files(not from dropbox) in discussion here?
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Steven Seelig

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So I did a small experiment this morning on the mixture of tiff and arw files.  I created a new catalog this morning 7.3.1 and imported by adding or copying exactly the same files as in the original catalog and the sort order by capture time are different between the two catalogs with neither of them being correct.  

So in summary I have two catalogs pointing to exactly the same files and the sort by capture time sequence between the two catalogs is different and neither is correct. If I look at just the tiff files, the display by capture time is correct.  If I look at just the arw files, the display by capture time is correct.  BUT, when looked at together, the display is not correct.

The one difference that I can think of is that for the original catalog, the tiff files were added by the File>Auto Import function and the arw files were imported from the camera card.  The second catalog is just importing the files off the drive. 
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Can you zip up the new test catalog (the .lrcat file) and its photos and make them available by Dropbox?  
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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...also include a screenshot of the incorrectly sorted thumbnails?
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Steven Seelig

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I am traveling at the moment, but will try do it a bit later today
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Smit Keniya, Employee

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Test catalog with images would really help us reproduce the issue.
(Edited)
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Steven Seelig

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This is a screenshot from the original catalog.  You can see 5/6/18 tiff files, going to 5/7/18 tiff files, to 5/14/18 tiff files followed by 5/6/18 ARW files
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There are two screenshots from the newly made library.  Notice the tiff image file immediately before 1804230139.arw is different that image above
(Edited)
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Here is the second screenshot from the newly made library.  In the second row notice the times of 1804230173.arw and 1804230044.tiff.  Clearly this is now out of sequence.  Both the original and newly made library point to exactly the same files.

I am uploading a zip file that I will detail and give a link for when it is uploaded.
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Steven Seelig

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Here is the link
Initial scan is a folder that accepts the scanned pictures from the scanner and remains empty because the pictures are transferred to their final destination 'Scanned Pictures 180423'.  The LR catalog Scanning Project is the original library and TEST is catalog that I created this morning.  Both the Scanning Project catalog and the TEST catalog point to the same files contained in 'Scanned Pictures 180423'

Let me know when you have downloaded it so I can delete the files.  Warning: it is 6.9 GB or there about.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g7zvlp1r9r53ngi/Scanning%20Project.zip?dl=0
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I downloaded it, and I can see the problem with just two photos imported into a fresh catalog:



I'll update you with whatever I learn.

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