Lightroom Classic 8.1: Custom Sort Order Problem

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This conversation has been merged. Please reference the main conversation: Lightroom Classic: Limit of 52 reorderings in custom-ordered collections and folders

Using the latest (12/12/2018) Lightroom CC classic 8.1, I am having problems with custom photo sort order.  I have a folder that contains a number of JPG and RAW images from both my phone (Galaxy S7) and my SLR (Nikon D610).  The images were sorted into a custom order with only the SLR photos in the folder prior to the 8.1 update.

Today I merged the camera photos into the folder which lead to the problem.  (Also today I updated to the latest 8.1).

I cannot sort the JPG photos (by dragging them to a new location - they do not move).  Also, if a SLR photo is between the JPG photos, I cannot move it either.  The JPGs are all at the front of the album.  I can move the SLR photos that are after all the JPG photos.
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StormyTheCat

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Posted 5 months ago

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StormyTheCat, 

Do you have subfolders in the folder you are trying to sort? 
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StormyTheCat

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This is the top level folder in a tree.  "Show Photos in Subfolders" is disabled. i.e.  I am not trying to sort across folders.
(Edited)
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StormyTheCat

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This was demonstrated to an Adobe chat representative.  case number:  ADB-4941147-Q9X2
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If you have Show Photos in Subfolders disabled, then it should work. I am able to drag files into custom sort orders as previously regardless of file type. So far, I am unable to reproduce what you are seeing.  Just to be safe, I would recommend resetting your preference file to see if that is causing the issue. 

A Preference File will survive a Lightroom uninstall/reinstall. Sometimes weird behavior is corrected/cured by resetting the preferences. 

Reset Procedure:

1. Close Lightroom.
2. Hold down [Alt/Opt]+[Shift] while restarting Lightroom. 
3. Overwrite the Preferences when prompted by the dialog.
4. Close Lightroom.
5. Restart Lightroom.

Does the failure to sort behavior continue after resetting the preferences?
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StormyTheCat

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This does not fix the issue
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Is it possible for you to share a quick cellphone video or a screen capture of your motions so I can review your steps and attempt to duplicate what you are doing and seeing?
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StormyTheCat

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Video of the move failing twice and showing the sub-folders are not enabled:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5jRBKBq5eN1YTtr2A (higher quality video)

(Edited)
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I found another issue.  In trying to make a different folder of mixed media files, I exported a RAW file to JPG in the same folder.  I then ran Synchronize and it did not detect the new JPG.
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If the JPEG file and the raw file have the same name and you've not checked "Treat JPEG files next to raw files as separate photos" in preferences, the JPEG file will be treated as a sidecar file and not show up.  If you want JPEGs and raws with the same name that option must be checked in preferences. 
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The treat separate flag worked.  Turns out you had me reset my preferences.  
Any luck reproducing the reorder bug?
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No. I watched your video and my installation is not behaving as yours is. If you go to the Library>Show Photos in Subfolders instead of right clicking in the Folders panel and toggle that option on and back off again, does your behavior change?
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Unfortunately that did not help
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StormyTheCat

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I moved all my JPGs back to their original folder and I still have the reorder issue.  Now the folder is ONLY JPGs.
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Does it work in any folder or just fail on top-level folders?
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StormyTheCat

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I just reverted back to 8.0.  My folder of RAW files (99% of what I shoot) reorders just fine.  My folder of Samsung Galaxy S7 JPGs still will not sort.

I tried an experiment and it worked.  I exported the problem folder (Galaxy S7) to a new catalog, opened the new catalog and now I can reorder the photos.  I can try removing the photos from the main catalog now and importing the new catalog but I wanted to see if you had anything else to try first.
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I noticed one more detail.  Some photos I can move.  Some I cannot. 
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In your original catalog or the test catalog?
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StormyTheCat

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Original catalog
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New catalog works as expected - old doesn't. Have you attempted to File>Optimize Catalog recently?
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Yes I have.  I moved the about 50 JPGs from the Galaxy S7 sub-folder to my main folder (after an optimization) and the problem is still here.  
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Yes.  Optimization doesn't help.  I just exported the top-level folder to another catalog from the top level - i.e.  the entire project.  Opened the new catalog and I was able to reorder a few of the problem photos.  One thought is this is a fix and I can just use this new catalog.  On the other hand, I am very worried that something didn't transfer.

Does Adobe have tools to analyze the difference between 2 catalogs?
(Edited)
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We do not have a tool to compare two catalogs. 

It does seem that the catalog may have an issue that Preferences and Optimization do not solve. One option would be to create a new catalog of all photos in your catalog and see if it appears cleaner. 

All Photos.
Select All
Expand All Stacks
Select All again
Export as a catalog (do not include negatives)

Open the Exported catalog. Does it work?
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It worked the first time I tried it without having SubFolders showing (so I only had my top level files).  I deleted that attempt and recreated it with SubFolders showing so that I had all 5000+ files in the new catalog.  With this attempt, I could NOT rearrange the problem files.  At this point I don't know if SubFolders made any difference or it's just the randomness of when this works/doesn't work.
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StormyTheCat

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Finally had a chance to try the entire reorder project on my home desktop that was never upgraded to 8.1.  It works perfectly.
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StormyTheCat

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Will this issue be perused for a fix? 
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StormyTheCat

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Not sure where to suggest a new feature but moving chunks of files between folders and having them appear randomly in the new location is very frustrating.  Would love to be able to select a bunch of photos, select "MOVE TO" and then enter both a folder and a position number and have the moved to the new folder at that position.
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Branching to a feature request

Please reference the new conversation here: Different "Move To" functionality
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StormyTheCat

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What happens now with the problem report?  Is this being passed to development?
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Rikk looks after making sure things are seen by the right teams, but much of Adobe is on vacation until the new year, so he'll catch up when he gets back.
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Thank you.  Interestingly, I always check your blog before loading a new release to see if there have been any issues reported.  Keep up the great work.
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StormyTheCat

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Sorry, I'm not familiar with Adobe processes.  Did this become a traceable bug report?  How will I know when it is fixed?  Thank you.
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The status at the top of the page indicates the current state -- see Rikk's post here: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/-7-3-new-bug-with-smart-collections?topic-rep...

There will be a reply here marked "official" if it gets resolved.
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And by posting on this thread, you should receive an email notice when there is some resolution.
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Have you done dozens of reorderings in that folder? Were many of those reorderings done prior to LR 7.1?

LR had a nasty bug in the way it implemented custom sorting for folders and collections, preventing more than 52 insertions at a given approximate location in the sort order:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-major-bug-with-custom-sort-order

While that bug appears to have been mostly fixed (according to my testing), I'm wondering if the bug fix applied to the sort order of existing folders and collections or only to sorts made after 7.1.  I'm also wondering if the bug has reappeared in a different guise.  I know the cause of the original bug but I haven't examined how 7.1 changed things -- it's entirely possible that LR still isn't using a correct algorithm.
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This catalog was created in July 2018 with whatever was the latest version of LR CC Classic at the time.  So, no to the prior to LR 7.1 question.

This catalog has > 3500 photos in it, I believe I very probably have done dozens of reorderings within this catalog.  I have created numerous panoramas and stacks of images and then moved them.  From looking at the bug report above, it seems very likely I hit the 53 move limit.  I really first noticed this problem when I tried to move 400 or so photos from another folder into my main folder and reorder them.

So I'm essentially running into a 2+ year old bug?  Possibly returned in 8.1....
(Edited)
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That bug was reported fixed back in 7.1, and I tested it then with the recipe used to reproduce the bug.  I found then it had one small hiccup, failing on the 53rd insertion but succeeding after that.  

I'll take a look in detail to see if I can determine if that bug has resurfaced in some way.

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