Lightroom: Integrate DNG profile editor with Lightroom

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  • Updated 7 years ago
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I've submitted this before on the other forum and direct to Adobe, but here it is again:

Instead of just app in beta on labs, integrate with Lightroom and make items available on camera calibration profile dropdown menu (bottom of right-hand panel in develop module):

- Add Profile
- Edit Profile
- Delete Profile
(or something like that)

...so users can create and maintain color profiles in Lightroom.

Note: this should work seamlessly when files are in proprietary camera formats too.

For those who don't know, you can do all these things now, and many power-users ultimately learn to do so. But, you have to restart Lightroom after deleting a profile, and there is no way to edit a profile from within Lightroom, and if you want to add one you have to download & install the editor app from the lab if not already, and run it yourself, plus if you are using camera proprietary formats, you have to convert to DNG to add the profile. Once profile makes it back to Lightroom, it will be available for use, at which point you can delete the DNG and apply it to non-DNG raw files.

So hopefully you see that a great tool is presently available that could be made seamlessly accessible in Lightroom, without too much trouble.

I'd suggest being able to store profiles in folders too, like presets, once this idea is adopted.
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Rob Cole

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  • egotistical, self-riteous, arrogant, opinionated, ..., but that doesn't mean this isn't a good idea!

Posted 7 years ago

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Rob Cole

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Oh yeah, I forgot to mention:

An option for a DNG profile to be made public, as it is now (assignable to other photos as camera calibration profile, e.g. x-rite), *or* kept more "private" (dng profile scope normally hidden, normally just used to tweak color of a single photo, yet still syncable - for more color control than just WB & HSL...) would be awesome.

If applicable as local (e.g. brush/gradient) that would be super-deluxe-bichen too, but now I may be asking for too much ;-}

Summary:
========
HSL tool (and camera cal hue/sat sliders) is nice for adjusting color in a photo, but is not as powerful as the DNG profile editor for defining color profile. Adobe already has the technology for more refined color adjustment - why not harness it for Lightroom?
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Scott Mahn

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I like it.
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Rob Cole

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The DNG Profile Editor is essentially a Lightroom compatible color tool, much like the advanced color tools in CaptureOnePro & DxO & NX2..., only better. Its capabilities just need to be made conveniently available to Lightroom users, without jumping through a bunch of hoops.

So far, its use has been confined to creating profiles to populate the camera calibration profile drop down list, but it could easily be adapted for more general use - including single or multi-photo color tweaking without cluttering the profile drop-down list.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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I'm not sure how much engineering time I'd dedicate to this right now, as I think there are other higher priority things that the time could be spent on, however there have been occasions when I've wished for the same, particular when working with extreme WB.
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Rob Cole

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Redesigning and retrofitting as Lightroom-specific color tool would be a fair amount of work, but integrating without modification as external profile editor (just providing some UI hooks and file-management in Lightroom) could be done with very little resource expenditure - I'd be perfectly happy with either approach.
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Andrew Rodney

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>Redesigning and retrofitting as Lightroom-specific color tool would be a fair amount of work, but integrating without modification as external profile editor (just providing some UI hooks and file-management in Lightroom) could be done with very little resource expenditure

Again, you need to do a bit more research in terms of what a DNG profile provides, where in the processing, and how versus the tools above it. And the editor exists for the very few number of users (compared to the full base) who need it. You can’t just scotch tape it to the LR app! The documentation and tech support costs of doing this alone isn’t minimal. You yourself just said you didn’t know you could use a DNG profile on non DNG raw files because you didn’t read the doc’s initially. Now consider the ramifications of sticking the DNG profile editor into Lightroom (and it would have to be placed into ACR too as the two app’s attempt to a large degree parity). Do you know for a fact that ACR, a plug-in can produce this functionality?

Lastly, do you really think, other than yourself and maybe a few others, how many LR and ACR users need this? Or are unable to use the tool currently provided and expensed by Adobe?

Its real easy to come up with ideas to clog up software in terms of functionality. You’d be willing to let, say better rendering algorithm’s (like fixing highlight recovery of color artifacts), or say Soft proofing in 4.0 so a limited use functionality that already exists is cloned into the app? Is this really a good use of the limited LR team’s resources?
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Rob Cole

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Andrew - I get this seems like a lousy idea to you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I'm under no delusions about feasibility or scope of effort.

Who would benefit? - People who reach a point in Lightroom where they can't get those colors the way they want using the existing toolset, but don't really want to resort to Photoshop (or NX2 or CaptureOnePro or Bibble) either.

This idea would preclude zero other major features or improvements.
...
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Andrew Rodney

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>Who would benefit? - People who reach a point in Lightroom where they can't get those colors the way they want using the existing toolset, but don't really want to resort to Photoshop (or NX2 or CaptureOnePro or Bibble) either.

And yet the tools exist, they have for a few years. The tools are free, the development costs have been spent. The development costs to place an existing tool in LR and ACR isn’t.

Your rational for having Adobe spend time, money and resources to place an existing tool, used by few, in LR of course isn’t as yet defined or justified. But that’s cool. The likelihood you’ll see what you want is, in my educated opinion, tiny. But heck, it costs nothing to ask. You did. What’s next on the want list?
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Rob Cole

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I get that there might not be enough user support for Adobe to do this. That's true of the vast majority of FR/Idea on this forum. I'd settle for camera calibration profile folders and a plugin as next best thing...
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Rob Cole

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I just found this in the DNG Profile Editor FAQ:

------------
Question: Given that Camera Raw and Lightroom already offer color rendering controls (e.g., HSL adjustments), isn't the DNG Profile Editor redundant? What advantages does it have?

Answer: PE is more powerful because of the finer control it provides over color adjustments. For example, PE's color adjustments can be restricted to specific saturation ranges, which cannot currently be accomplished in CR / LR using either the HSL adjustments or the legacy Camera Calibration sliders.
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But then I also found this:

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Question: Why is the DNG Profile Editor being released as a separate, stand-alone software application instead of being integrated into Camera Raw and Lightroom?

Answer: PE is designed to edit camera profiles, not images. We expect that camera profile editing will be done relatively infrequently by most users, especially compared to the amount of time that will be spent processing images. Consequently, it does not make sense to integrate PE's functionality and interface directly into CR / LR.

Another strong reason (decoupling PE and CR releases) is given here.
-----------

I'm confused. It is more powerful and offers finer control, but its still not a good idea to migrate the functionality to Lightroom? - I disagree. Its *entirely* possible to "extend the design concept" so it can be incorporated in Lightroom. And it is *entirely* possible to integrate PE with Lr and *not* have it "coupled" with CR releases.

A plea to Adobe: Think outside the box and bring us more powerful and finer color control in Lightroom! - so we don't have to jump through so many hoops... harnessing the PE seems to make sense since it's a shoe-in, but I'd guess most users don't really care how its accomplished... - neither do I.
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Andrew Rodney

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Your confusion is the separation of a tool to tweak DNG profiles (and what DNG Profiles provide and where in the processing pipeline) and your desire, which is justifiable IMHO, for finer control over color rendering in the app. My suggestion would be to totally ignore DNG profiles and the editor. Submit images that you have difficulty rendering using the tools in the app designed for this task and suggesting to Adobe how they might improve them. Asking for a DNG profile editor inside LR to produce finer control over certain editing needs is a bit like asking GM to increase the horsepower in an engine of a car that has a flat tire. The issue is the tire!
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Rob Cole

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Modified excerpt of a post from another thread:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In case you don't know, you can create DNG profiles for NEFs (or any other raw file) thusly:

1. Use DNG Converter to make a DNG copy of your NEF picture.
(or make a physical copy of the NEF+XMP, import, then use Lightroom to convert to DNG).
2. Run DNG Profile Editor and open the DNG (and previously saved recipe if applicable), and save the profile in the proper place.
3. Save the recipe for future editing, and delete the "intermediate" DNG file.
4. Restart Lightroom.

Summary:
=======
There are three impediments to creating camera calibration profiles:
1. knowing that its possible (FR/Idea that may help in this regard)
2. Jumping through the procedural hoops. This FR/Idea is the remedy...
3. Cluttered profile list in Lightroom (FR/Idea to remedy this).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Personally I think Andrew's variation is spot on. Thinking of the occasions when I'd want to be able to easily build profiles, it falls into a couple of different areas:

1. Extreme WB
2. Shifting specific colours more easily accurately than the HSL tools

Those are things that we currently have to use the DNG profile editor to do, but only because there isn't a way of doing so using LR's standard tools.

In those situations, I wouldn't care about building PROFILE, so there's no need for the full DNG profile editor. I'd only be looking for those tools. I doubt that it's just a case of strapping on the DNG profile editor, so I'd prefer to see that engineering time to adapt the tools further to integrate properly.
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Rob Cole

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Any way we can adjust color in Lightroom with more specificity would be a step in the right direction, AFAIC.
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Scott Mahn

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Bump.

Would really like the local color specificity adjustments that DNG PE allows built into the image editing function of LR.

IOW, less interested in building profiles as I am in using that color engine for image by image adjustments and presets. Really want that level of control badly.
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Rob Cole

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You can have it now if you are willing to jump through some hoops and endure some tacky-ness:

1. Make presets just for applying re-usable profiles (your going to let the profile list in camera calibration section get way overpopulated - never to be used again).
2. Create a profile, even if just for one picture.
3. Put newly created profile in a temp preset folder as only item, so you can find it easily in Lightroom.
4. Restart Lightroom and select profile in temp folder, then remove profile from temp folder (delete or move), to not pollute your preset list.

What you'll have is advanced color adjustment in just one photo, sync-able, but otherwise hidden in Lightroom. To make reusable, make a preset with just the profile in it.

To assign re-usable profiles, use the presets - its better anyway, since you get to see a preview first in the navigator ;-}

I could tell you about how I'm going to automate this via plugin, but then I'd have to kill you ;-}

-R
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Scott Mahn

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Rob, I'm too bleary eyed to follow those directions clearly, but it might make a suitable workaround for an issue I'm facing.

I have some files from an officially unsupported camera that I'd like to process in Camera Raw. ACR can presently process the files, however DNG Profile Editor can't work with the DNG's ACR makes from them, so there's no way to apply the Profile Editor functionality to these images.

However, I wonder if profiles made for other cameras in your workflow could be applied to these images as a preset? Is this a means to "cross profiles" in ACR/LR?
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Rob Cole

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Scott, I'm not sure why ACR can handle them but DNG Profile Editor can not, but I don't think this will work for cross profiling. I *think* the way Lightroom works is to look up the real profile to apply to a camera based on profile name and camera model. So, you can assign Adobe Standard to all cameras that have that profile implemented, but a different data file will actually be implementing the profile. Similarly, if you store blah-de-blah profile for your Nikon D300, you won't be able to apply it to a Nikon D3, because the associated camera model is embedded somehow - I think. (I mean you may be able to do some tricks in some cases, but you'd be asking for trouble in most cases...)

But if ACR is doing a good job with the unsupported camera files, you may be able to trick DNG profile editor into accepting them too, if you change the camera model to something DNG profile editor is happier about, using ExifTool.

I dunno - I'm a bit out on a limb (gettin' a little bleary m'self...) - Cheers, Rob.
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Rob Cole

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Advanced Color Editor
Lightroom plugin.

It integrates the DNG Profile Editor with Lightroom as much as possible, given current limitations.