Lightroom: Import Dialogue Worklfow Questions and Ideas

  • 3
  • Idea
  • Updated 7 years ago
  • (Edited)
Is there any "Workflow" reason why my primary and secondary backups have different names sometimes? If not, I would strongly suggest they ought to have the same name.

Same goes for the primary and backup folders. Please create an option for them to be identical.

And it would be great each time I did an import I didn't have to nagivate to the folder again.

Also, there is no reason, IMHO, for the folder hierarchy to be flapping around all the time. Why are the primary and backup panels so different.

Wouldn't be nice if there were automatic folder naming, where the first part of the folder name was today's date? Like it used to have?

Also, while I understand that programs need to be updated, taking away features from one version to the next could be a "workflow" problem for people who have been using it the old way. You can add features, but please don't delete them.

Another issue: creating a secondary backup folder I always end up with a folder called "New Folder". I may not be the brightest bloke, but the fact that this keeps happening is an issue.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
  • Amazed

Posted 7 years ago

  • 3
Photo of sizzlingbadger

sizzlingbadger

  • 31 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
If you spent more energy reading the manual and understanding the product and less time bleating on forums you may actually get somewhere.

Yes we want feedback so improvements can be made but there are constructive ways to do this ;-)
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
I could say the same thing to you: don't waste your time calling people sheep. It is not a good reflection on you, and if you are lucky Adobe will remove your post.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
Totally agree with Photographe.
Photo of Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen

Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

  • 4307 Posts
  • 1570 Reply Likes
I've just posted a few guidelines on what makes up a good feature request. They may be useful. http://feedback.photoshop.com/photosh...
Photo of sizzlingbadger

sizzlingbadger

  • 31 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Thanks Victoria, that was exactly my point. A clear and concise description of your problem or change to functionality in your first post saves everyone so much time.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
I don't understand half of the things you brought up here. I suggest that each of these items needs to be a new FR with a decent description so that we can clearly understand what you're talking about and then we can comment on them or help you out...
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
What don't you understand?
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
Most of your post is in partial sentences that assumes the reader knows exaclty what you mean:

"for the folder hierarchy to be flapping around all the time"

No idea what that means, so a short description would help.

"And it would be great each time I did an import I didn't have to nagivate to the folder again"

I think I know what you're referring to here, but not exactly. Again a short desription would help.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
I love photography, but I don't love dealing with this stuff or writing about it, so foregive my haste in my initial post. This is a real issue, and I will try to explain it further:

Sometimes LR does not remember where I last saved my primary copy. So sometimes I have to navigate through several layers of folders to get to the proper folder. I don't know whether this is a bug or a feature. My D: drive, where my first copy is stored, is always online so there is no reason for LR to forget. The process of navigating is also a little harder than it has to be because the folders do not maintain their position on the screen. They actually move up and down as you navigate further or collapse folders, which is why I used the word "flapping". This is an annoyance, but the bigger problem here is that LR does not always remember the folder I last used.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
OK, I see the problem with the folders flapping around!

As for the last folder, you can always go to the filmstrip at the bottom of the window and either click the left arrow to go back to the last folder or collection you were in, or click the down arrow to see a list of recent folders. This isn't a perfect solution (I really wish LR would not take me to new folders on its own) but it is very useful to quickly jump back to folders you've been working in...
Photo of Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen

Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

  • 4307 Posts
  • 1570 Reply Likes
It's not designed to be a primary backup. It's designed to be a byte-for-byte backup of the images as they come off the card.

It's split into dated folders so that it's easy to transfer the untouched backups of your latest imported images to another media. If they were laid out in an as-shot dated structure, and you imported photos from different dates in one go, it would be easy to miss transferring some.

Why are the primary and backup panels so different? Because they're different tools for different jobs, and the 'second copy' doesn't require a complex interface.

I would suggest that what you're asking for is actually a full fledged backup system. If the second copy backup replicated the working folder structure, users would be more likely to assume that it contained a full backup of their entire working folder structure. This would never be true, because it wouldn't be updated when someone moved, renamed, or deleted files, or when they added new derivative files.

It may happen one day, but it won't be a change to 'second copy' - it would be a separate new backup feature because it would have a different purpose. After all, you don't want to see 'features' taken away.

As far as taking away features goes, that's the only thing I can think of that's ever been 'removed', and there is an alternative when you finish importing. I agree it would be nice to have back, but there are bigger issues in life to get upset about.

As far as your new folder issue goes, that's you creating that folder, not LR. Set your second copy folder to a single location and leave it there if you don't want to figure out what you're doing wrong.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
Sean--in a previous release (possibly LR 3.0 but I can't be sure) you could, with a bit of work, cause your first copy and second copy to have identical folder structures. Now, no matter what you do LR will insert into the second copy a folder called "Imported on Sunday May 1, 2011 [or whatever date it happens to be]". So the option to order your folders as you please was eliminated.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
Ah, that would be really annoying!
Photo of Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen

Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

  • 4307 Posts
  • 1570 Reply Likes
Mmmm, that was either 3.0 or 3.2, and it was a bug. 2.x always had that "Imported on..." folder naming.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
Surely you mean the bug was introduced in v 3.2 or 3.3. Version 3.0 is what I bought after a thorough evaluation, and it does it right. Take a look at the official documentation, which states:

"If you’re copying or moving photos into the catalog, you can create a one-time backup of the original photo files. In the File Handling panel on the right side of the import window, select Make A Second Copy To and specify a location."

No mention of additional directories.

Also on the "What's New" page (http://www.adobe.com/products/photosh...)

"The newly designed import interface is easy to set up and navigate, with clear visual indications of where your photos will be located and how they'll be organized after you've imported them."

Again, no mention of undocumented subfolders.

The improved Import feature was one of the big things in v 3.0 Take a look at http://www.lightroomqueen.com/blog/pa.... There are 12 bullet points under Import, including:

"Destination folders that will be created by the import as shown in italics so you can see exactly what will happen."

and (IN RED): "Lots of fixes and everything works pretty well now."
Photo of Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen

Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

  • 4307 Posts
  • 1570 Reply Likes
Photographe, you are correct that the documentation doesn't mention the "Imported on..." subfolders. Although the documentation isn't incorrect in what it does say, I agree it could do with that information being added.

I do understand your frustration in the change of behavior from the 3.0 that you originally evaluated. The people who preferred the 2.x "imported on" behavior were equally frustrated to find that the behavior had disappeared from 3.0.

I didn't list it on my what's new because I hadn't noticed the change of behavior. If I had, it would have been reported as a bug before 3.0 was released, and we'd only be discussing your desire for a mirrored folder structure rather than which behavior was a bug.

While you're busy quoting me, allow me to put that in context "Lots of fixes and everything works pretty well now. It’s much more responsive than the beta builds." I didn't say it was bug free - nothing ever is - and the comment was comparing to the beta builds that the post was building on, which is why it was in red.

Whether the with-subfolders or without-subfolders behavior is the bug doesn't make any difference - Adobe felt that without-subfolders was a bug, as it was an unintended change of behaviour from 2.x, so they fixed it. I understand that behavior doesn't suit you, so you've put in a feature request. That's exactly the way to deal with it, so great.

You obviously feel strongly about this, so I'd suggest putting in a separate feature request for this single feature, if you haven't done so already, explaining exactly why you want it, so that other people can vote. When there are so many different requests in a single topic, it's easy for some of the requests to be missed, and it's harder for people to vote as they may agree with some points and disagree with others.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
Nikon Transfer is not a full fledged back-up system, and it does exactly what I want at the image ingestion phase except:

(1) It adds a step because I have to go back to LR to import into the catalogue;
(2) It does not provide image verification ala Image Verifier (and neither does LR of course).

All I want is to have two exact copies of my photos at the outset without too much fuss. Since they are RAW photos, they should not change and I can take care of backing up xmp files with my full-fledged backup software.
Photo of Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen

Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

  • 4307 Posts
  • 1570 Reply Likes
If you have full fledged backup software, why are you not using that to back up the files in the way that you want?
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
Why do it twice? If I can do it in one step I can immediately reformat my card if I wanted to and keep shooting. Virtually every other import software I've tried allows for this, and it is very, very easy to implement. Btw, I don't understand the usefulness of having two nonidentical folder structures, but if other people like that good for them. Not asking to take that away, just add an option to quickly and easily create two indentical folder structures as a first step in the image management process.
Photo of Photographe

Photographe

  • 243 Posts
  • 31 Reply Likes
As far as the New Folder thing, I have to create that folder to make the Backup identical to the primary. The whole Import Window is too fussy for my taste.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
I've found the Image importer in LR to be so painful and slow, and it doesn't provide me with the file and folder naming capabilities that I require, so I continue to use Breeze Downloader Pro to ingest images from my cards, and then I simply "Synchronize" my existing top level folders to import new folders.

DLP and other image ingestion programs work so well for file naming and for automatic secondary backups that I'm happy to continue using them instead of demanding these features from Lightroom.

I realize that I'm capitulating here, but the file and folder naming capabilities in LR are so weak that they aren't even remotely useful to me. It's not that I think Adobe couldn't do it, but in 3 (and half) versions of Lightroom they haven't even tried...
Photo of sizzlingbadger

sizzlingbadger

  • 31 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Although using another import program is a 2 step process the synchronise in Lightroom would be quick so that is a pretty good workaround until Adobe improve the import.

This could be achieved with Nikon Transfer too so maybe its a viable option for Photographe to consider too.
Photo of Sean Phillips

Sean Phillips

  • 159 Posts
  • 44 Reply Likes
Synchronise is very fast. And I get faster transfers from my cards using DLP than LR, so that's another bonus. I also use DLP to create a primary backup and it's fast enough that it doesn't bother me to do it all at once.
Photo of sizzlingbadger

sizzlingbadger

  • 31 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I import directly into LR (folders by date and file rename) without backing up to a second destination because I found it far too slow. I rename (add wording) to my dated folders immediately after import. I have TimeMachine running so my images are backed up within the hour (you could use any sync/backup software to do this) I don't remove my images from the CF cards until the backup has completed so I always have 2 copies on different media. My offsite backup is done at the end of the day. All 3 backups look identical and have the new file names (the camera generated names are of no use to me)

This also allows me to work in Lightroom sooner as the backup does not interfere with its performance. Buying a couple of extra CF cards solved all these import issues for me and also gives me the flexibility to shoot more photos when I'm away for longer periods. If a card fails I also have more to rely on out in the field.

This may not fit your workflow but it may give you some useful ideas as how you can modify your workflow slightly to fit the applications available.
Photo of Jim Wilde

Jim Wilde

  • 136 Posts
  • 26 Reply Likes
Being on Win7, I don't have the 'luxury' of TimeMachine and I'd rather not break the workflow to initiate a specific backup process, so that means using the 'Second Copy' option to protect the original files from the CF card and to date I have not had any particular concerns about using it. However, your 'far too slow' comment got me wondering so I've just run some import timing tests both using and not using 'Second Copy'. First results were a tad depressing, in that the time taken to import using 'Second Copy' was almost 50% longer than the time without. Put my thinking cap on and retested, but this time writing the Second Copy to one of my internal hard drives rather than an external USB2 hard drive....and found that the time taken was virtually identical to the time without Second Copy. Obvious conclusion (although it was only a reasonably short series of tests) is that there's really nothing wrong with using the Second Copy, but I do need to look at getting away from USB2!
Photo of sizzlingbadger

sizzlingbadger

  • 31 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
That makes sense. My masters are on FW800 and my 2nd copy was going to USB. I want my backups to have the same folder names and I can't do that during import.
Photo of Gary Forner

Gary Forner

  • 1 Post
  • 0 Reply Likes
I too would like to be able to have the option to have my backup folder mirror the naming convention of the primary folder.

A free product, Nikon View NX2, has this feature and I loved it.