Lightroom/Camera Raw: Fuji GFX Raw File White Balance Issues - Magenta Tint

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When importing Fuji GFX RAW files into PS/LR, using ACR, the ACR 'as shot' WB shows a significant +CC offset, and a -K offset, and is not in line with the K or CC values in-camera. This results in an image which is cooler than shot, with a magenta color cast. This is prevalent across the GFX50S and GFX50R, and appears to be an issue with the way ACR is interpreting the WB metadata in the Fuji RAW file.
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Chris Dodkin

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I downloaded a Fuji GFX 50S RAF file with calibration chart and it has no WB tint with LR set to 'As Shot.' The colorchecker patches are neutral. The actual WB values will be slightly different due to how Adobe interprets the camera's values, but the onscreen image should be correct.

What do you see with the below RAF file?

https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/fuji-gfx/GFXhSLI000100NR1.RAF.HTM



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Chris Dodkin

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Looks fine, but as we have no idea how the WB was set in the camera for this test shot, it doesn't help us.

On shots where the camera is in AWB mode, shooting daylight scenes, or studio scenes with strobes, the WB issue is very prevalent. Yet the in-camera JPEG WB looks accurate.

If I take a color meter reading of the light at time of capture, the metered K and CC values are significantly different to those shows as 'as shot' in ACR. ACR always shows cooler K and +CC.

If I use the Fixed Kelvin WB option on the GFX to dial in the K from the meter, the displayed results in ACR do not match the WB values set in camera, and show a CC+10 offset as well.

This is across multiple GFX bodies, and multiple computers running PS and LR current versions.

In general daylight ambient photography, and studio strobe photography, the -k and +CC WB issues are easy to spot, once you're alerted to it.
(Edited)
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As already explained differences in LR WB Temp and Tint "values" are very common and not necessarily a cause of incorrect WB. The best way to determine if LR/ACR is reading and setting WB properly is to compare the RAF file's embedded JPEG preview (or an actual raw + JPEG shot) with the LR rendering of the raw image data. Below is an example using the RAF file at the link I provided.  There are slight color differences, but the WB is identical in both the embedded preview and raw data rendering in LR 8.2.1.

If you have a file that demonstrates a WB difference between the embedded JPEG or camera JPEG and LR raw data rendering then we have something for Adobe Engineering to investigate. Thank you.



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The in-camera JPEG shows accurate WB, while the RAW conversion of the same file in PS shows a -k and +CC WB shift. The ACR WB shift is not dependent on any Adobe profile used, it exists on all Adobe color profiles, including the camera specific ones.
 
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EDIT: Please provide an DNG RAF file copy with your settings applied that demonstrates the issue via Dropbox or other file sharing site. Thank you. (A DNG file export will no longer have the original embedded JPEG preview so not useful!)
(Edited)
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Second sample - same target, different camera body - GFX50S this time - same issue

https://www.dropbox.com/s/05ws0q6l76pmlux/DSCF0738.RAF?dl=0
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Metered K and CC values
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Both RAF file's embedded preview and raw file have identical WB rendering with 'As Shot' WB when viewed onscreen and using the WB Eyedropper. I just noticed your post showing the in-camera JPEG next to an ACR generated JPEG also look identical. Are you not seeing that? If not we need to do some troubleshooting.
Do the RAF files look different when switching between the Develop and Library modules? If so try unchecking 'Use Graphics Processor' in LR Preferences> Performance tab. Do they now look the same?

LR As Shot WB Values: 5050 +17 and 5000 +17
Your meter WB: 5080 LB -10 CC 3
 I have no idea how LB and CC values are converted to the single Tint value, but it's of little concern since the actual WB rendering is correct. I also checked LR JPEG file exports and they look identical as well.

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Not only can I see a difference between the embedded JPEG and the ACR JPEG, I can measure it. Top set WB off of your RAF, bottom set WB off of Embedded. There's a CC5 difference.

And I'm using PS not LR
(Edited)
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My in camera JPEG and ACR JPEG are also different, _ measure CC3 difference in mid grey, CC10 in dark grey/black
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If you're not seeing it visually, then I'd recommend screen calibration as it's clear as day here. And the eyedropper tool backs it up 100% of the time
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The color meter CC (Color-Correction) displays Kodak filter number(s) of the necessary light-balancing filter(s) to make for easy selection of the required light balancing filter. Whereas the LB system uses amber or blue filters, the CC system uses magenta or green color compensating filters. CC is the system Adobe represent in ACR, so you only have to use the CC value from the meter.

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Given that I'm having to explain the above to you - can I ask what your qualification is to be reviewing this issue?
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BINGO–Your Studio sample - GFX50S RAF file really demonstrates the issue!
The embedded preview and LR raw file renderings are identical, but the backdrop shifts to a magenta tint in the lower right and left sides of the image. I used the PROVIA/Standard camera profile, which best matches the embedded preview rendering. As you mentioned all of the camera profiles exhibit the issue. Thanks for hanging in there with me to establish something Adobe can evaluate and fix.

Does that concur with what you see in the Studio sample file DSCF9452.RAF?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/huats888hifq95h/DSCF9452.RAF?dl=0

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This file shows 5400k +13 WB 'as shot' setting when I bring it into ACR. Actual WB should be 6250k -4 WB, which matches what the camera sees. As with all files, the issue is low K and high CC offsets on the 'as shot', which do not match what the camera is recording.
(Edited)
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I'm worried by your use of the term 'identical' - the two versions are not identical, and the magenta cast is visible on the backdrop, model, grey card etc - the skin tone is a dead giveaway. Do you not see that?
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Let's focus on the actual screen rendering and not the WB values for now. The amount of "actual" WB shift in the image rendering is small compared to the large differences in As Shot WB readings. It's indicative of an issue, but not the problem we need to identify and nail down right now.

Let's address this question, "Given that I'm having to explain the above to you - can I ask what your qualification is to be reviewing this issue?"

I am not an Adobe employee and assisting you as any other user would in this forum. Adobe has assigned some of the more experienced users the title of 'Champion' with ability to edit and move posts as well as communicate directly with Adobe staff. My statement, "I have no idea how LB and CC values are converted to the single Tint value" is in reference to how Adobe converts the raw file's WB matrices to 'As Shot' values, regardless of how they are set in-camera. I established my own color processing lab back in the 1970s and certainly know what CC filters are and how to use them.

In my last post concerning the Studio sample RAF file, "Does that concur with what you see in the Studio sample file DSCF9452.RAF?" If not tell me what you are seeing in the actual screen rendering not WB values.

After looking at this further I discovered building a 1:1 Preview for the DSCF9452.RAF file (Library> Previews> Build 1:1 Previews) removes the magenta tint shift observed in the lower right and left gray background area. Do you see that as well when viewing the image in the Library module? If not 'Remove' the file from LR and reimport it with 'Standard Preview' selected in the Import module 'Build Previews' selector. This is not normal behavior so I need to confirm you are seeing the same behavior...or not! I tried disabling 'Use Graphics Processor,' but it had no affect on the magenta tint with only a Standard preview built.
Hopefully Adobe staff will comment shortly.

(Edited)
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I don't use LR, as I said previously - I use PS, so the instructions you're providing make zero sense to me. The fact that your visual experience and mine are different, and that we are using different software, is an issue, on top of my existing problem.

FWIW I wrote my doctorate thesis in color space analysis for robotic vision systems, so maybe I'm more critical than most when it comes to digital color, but regardless, the issue is still presenting itself to me, and other GFX/Adobe users
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PS and LR use the exact same Adobe Camera Raw plugin. The only difference is that ACR doesn't have LR's Library module and preview capability. It's good I checked this issue inside LR because I can confirm what you're seeing in LR's Library module preview when only standard previews have been built and not 1:1 previews.

In the below screenshots I cannot confirm what you're seeing in the Develop module and JPEG export files. These were opened in PS and compared the values compared in the ColorChecker Grayscale top bar. The posted file is Adobe RGB profile to keep as close as possible to my wide gamut NEC PA272w display profile. The measurements speak for themselves.


Once thing I noticed is that the As Shot WB (5400, 13) is not correct and the image has a distinct blue tint. Using the WB Eydropper on the top Grayscale bar the values are 6150 -4. This is not a huge difference, but incorrect if the camera was properly set for the color meter measured WB. Regardless all three screen shots have the exact same shift including the Embedded Preview created in-camera using your WB settings. So it appears WB was not set correctly in-camera.

Don't get me wrong–I'm not doubting you're seeing this issue on your system. It's just that I can't duplicate it on my Windows 10 system using LR 8.2.1. When I get a chance I'll run the same tests using PS and ACR to see if there's any difference.
EDIT: I have no way of extracting the embedded preview in the RAF file for checking inside PS. It will help if you can reshoot the below ColorChecker with raw + JPEG file format enabled in-camera. Then upload both to Dropbox. Thank you!

(Edited)
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I'm using the full resolution JPEG generated in camera, not the lower resolution embedded JPEG.

When I compare in-camera to ACR, the ACR files requires C2 more magenta correction, based on sampling the white area of the test card on both images.

RAW Conversion


In-Camera JPEG
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Here's a good example where I'm having to shoot RAW + JPEG in order to do the in-camera pano crop. You can see the ACR version has more magenta, neutrals like the sidewalk go magenta in color for example.

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I'm only seeing a 1 unit Tint or Temp difference between your raw and in-camera JPEG, but even the 2 unit difference in your screenshot is very small. I know you mentioned that this is happening with all Adobe camera profiles, but it's important that we compare the same in-camera to ACR settings. To do that you need to set the camera to Adobe RGB and Provia/Standard so that the JPEG has these settings applied to it. We can then set the raw file to Provia Standard camera profile to match the JPEG in-camera rendering. That's what I did in my screenshot showing the Embedded Preview, RAF file, and JPEG export of the RAF file. In my composite shot there is 0 difference in Temp and Tint.

The larger WB differences in the 2nd picture of the motel may be due to other in-camera settings. Many in-camera settings are not read or applied inside ACR/LR, which can cause significant difference in the raw rendering compared to the in-camera JPEG file. These raw to JPEG differences can also be caused by an incompatible monitor profile.

Given these small differences the best way to determine what's happening is to do a controlled test shot of the ColorChecker Grayscale card. Set the camera for Adobe RGB, Provia/Standard picture, Highest Quality Full-Size JPEG, and all other picture style controls set to 0 or OFF. This will most closely match the RAF file rendering inside ACR/LR when it is set to Provia/Standard camera profile. It would also help to set the camera's WB as close as possible to the actual lighting condition. Then post the raw+JPEG file pair to Dropbox for comparison. This will help us both to determine what's wrong and get it "fixed." Thank you!
(Edited)
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I never shoot Adobe RGB for work, only sRGB. So I'm not interested in doing AdobeRGB based comparisons. This may be a specific sRGB issue, so I'm not interested in making the issue 'go away' at the expense of using a different color space.

There were no other camera settings applied to the motel image, no custom WB or tint adjustments. No custom settings to the JPEG, as I never use them. The only reason one exists with the Motel shot is that the camera insists on generating JPEGs with the RAW file when you're shooting a cropped camera view. 

It's interesting that you keep using embedded JPEGs, and see nothing, where as I use the camera generated full resolution JPEG and see differences, and they are always skewed the same way. Small differences are important, minimizing them is not helpful.

I have a fully calibrated monitor, and it get's recalibrated monthly, so I don't believe your monitor profile theory holds water. I see the effect across multiple computers and screen btw.
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I never shoot Adobe RGB for work, only sRGB. So I'm not interested in doing AdobeRGB based comparisons. This may be a specific sRGB issue, so I'm not interested in making the issue 'go away' at the expense of using a different color space.
Just keep in mind when comparing ACR RAF renderings it uses ProPhoto RGB. If a specific area of the image falls outside of sRGB gamut it will look different in the sRGB  JEPG. For the CC Graycard shot using sRGB is OK as long as the WB is set correctly in-camera.

There were no other camera settings applied to the motel image, no custom WB or tint adjustments. No custom settings to the JPEG, as I never use them. The only reason one exists with the Motel shot is that the camera insists on generating JPEGs with the RAW file when you're shooting a cropped camera view.
I believe what you're saying and you should post that raw+JPEG pair as well for examination. Was this an in-camera crop setting or still shot taken with the camera in video mode? It may be an entirely separate issue.

It's interesting that you keep using embedded JPEGs, and see nothing, where as I use the camera generated full resolution JPEG and see differences, and they are always skewed the same way. Small differences are important, minimizing them is not helpful.
Currently the embedded preview is all I have to compare! There may be something different about the camera embedded preview, which is why I am requesting you shoot the controlled raw+JPEG test shot.


I have a fully calibrated monitor, and it get's recalibrated monthly, so I don't believe your monitor profile theory holds water. I see the effect across multiple computers and screen btw.
Chris why so defensive. I said "it can also be caused by an incompatible monitor profile," which is not a theory. Troubleshooting is a process of elimination. I didn't say that was  the cause here, which remains undetermined. The fact that you see the same issue across multiple computers indicates it's probably not the cause.
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Greetings Chris, 

Would you be willing to share a file with us Preferebly Raw + JPEG so that I can attach it to the bug report?

FYI, I will be cross-referencing your DP Review Thread as well. 
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Thanks Rikk!
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Hey Rikk - many thanks for taking interest in this one.

RAW + JPEG here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jp1sdcfwfjj6bhc/AAAmREz8Z22IcroFnp3VFBF6a?dl=0

This is a Fuji GFX in camera aspect ration crop, so you'll need JPEG and RAW in the same folder for ACR to see the JPEG crop and apply it to the RAW file.

Let me know any questions you have - and FWIW this issue appears to extend to other Fuji X Series models as well, so may not be GFX specific.

(Edited)
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Chris, I can easily see the WB difference between this JPEG and RAF file pair. Thinking about this it may have something to do with the in-camera crop setting. You mentioned that when a crop is set the camera creates both an RAF file and a JPEG, even when the camera is set to raw only. Perhaps the JPEG created with in-camera crop is applying WB differently.

Here's a GFX 50R raw+JPEG file pair from Imaging Resources. With the As Shot WB and camera profile Provia/Standard applied the WB in the ColorChecker is correct and the same in both the RAF and JPEG file. The only difference here is that an in-camera crop hasn't been applied. There may be some other in-camera settings as well, but I haven't examined them. The color rendering is also near identical with some slight differences in saturation.

Plese let me know if you're seeing something different when viewed on your system with the As Shot WB and camera profile Provia/Standard settings in ACR.


GFXRhSLI000100NR1.JPG
GFXRhSLI000100NR1.RAF
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Todd - appreciate you trying to help, but you keep going off track, and confusing the issue. Please leave this to Rikk and the team. Thx.
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Just checked the EXIF data and the only settings difference I can see is that your file has a White Balance Fine Tune setting and all of the other files without he issue are set to 0, 0.

It's possible the in-camera 'As Shot' WB value isn't being calculated correctly using the 'Fine Tune' values, but is being applied properly to the rendered image data in camera JPEG file.

You can test this by shooting raw+JPEG under the same lighting conditions with the camera's White Balance Fine Tune set to 0, 0 and then a 2nd shot with the below Red -20, Blue +0 settings. Make sure to apply the same in-camera Film Mode setting in ACR's Profile setting. If the raw and JPEG file WB matches in the 0, 0 shot and are different in the -20, 0 shots then that explains what's happening.

DSCF4094.RAF
White Balance Fine Tune:Red -20, Blue +0

GFXRhSLI000100NR1.RAF
White Balance Fine Tune:Red +0, Blue +0

NOTE: I'm still seeing a WB difference between Lightroom Classic 8.2.1 Library and Develop modules with just a Standard Preview built. Once a 1:1 Preview is built the Library module preview matches the Develop module and the rendering in ACR. Why just the Fuji GFX files exhibit this is a mystery. However, it's a separate issue specific to Lightroom that Adobe Engineering needs to investigate.

Lightroom Classic 8.2.1 Library module

    STANDARD PREVIEW BUILT                   1:1 PREVIEW BUILT


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I've got them attached to the bug. I won't be responding to the DP Review thread - Can you let them know we are looking into it?
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Yes - that thread is full to the 150 post limit, so I'll start a new one.
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Done
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Rikk - I'm seeing the same behavior if I shoot in 'Daylight' WB set in-camera. When that RAW file is imported into ACR it ends up cooler and with too much magenta every time.

Adobe ACR shows 4650 K +17CC if I set the WB in-camera to Daylight

Adobe ACR shows 5500 K +10CC if I set the WB in ACR to Daylight

The images are visually different, with a cool magenta color cast on the image where daylight WB is set in-camera.

So the WB tags from the camera are either wrong, or the WB tags are being incorrectly mapped in ACR. 

Either way it's a big issue.

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Thank you for the updated information. I will pass it along. 
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Rikk - any updates from Adobe?