Lightroom: Finer control of relative adjustments (quick develop)

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I'd love to have finer control over relative adjustments. Examples:

Often I want to adjust exposure by .1 or .2, presently .3 is finest.
Often I want to adjust temperature by 100 or 200, presently finest is like 300-ish.
Often I want to adjust recovery by 1 or 2, presently finest is 5.

etc.

Any way this could be accomplished would do:
I'd settle for an option in preferences (maybe make it numeric so people could set their own granularity) or keyboard modifier... - doesn't matter too much to me, as long as there is some way.

Same goes for develop module, but its not so bad there since one can always use the sliders instead of keyboard...
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Rob Cole

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Photographe

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I always thought the Quick Develop Panel should have sliders like the real develop window. What's wrong with that?
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Rob Cole

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Nothing at all. In fact, if I had my way, quick-dev and "slow-dev" would be the same - lib+dev merged. I'm just trying to cover all bases...
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Why? What would that gain? And what would you set as 0 when you had multiple photos selected, considering all that QD does is move the main Develop sliders and they may all have different values?
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Rob Cole

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I dont understand the question. I think the suggestion here was to have sliders instead of buttons (or along with buttons as Lee Jay proposed in another recent thread), so users could make relative adjustments to a bunch of photos at any granularity. If quick-dev & slow-dev were merged, there would need to be the capability for *both* relative & absolute adjustments to a multi-photo selection.
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Photographe

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Victoria, the question is "why does Quick Develop have buttons?" Scott Kelby put it very well when he said:

"Can you make the Quick Develop panel have sliders, so we’ll actually use it? Those one-click buttons are sheer misery. I can’t tell you how many people complain that they don’t use Quick Develop for that very reason."

See http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2010/a...
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Sorry, but "Scott says..." isn't a compelling reason to change something.

Can you explain what's wrong with the buttons, and why you think sliders would be better? How is that a misery? How would sliders help? And how would you imagine that working?

I'm not arguing the point, but so far I haven't see a good justification - and if I haven't seen it, then there's a fair chance the engineers haven't seen it either.
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Photographe

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I think the question is why shouldn't QD have sliders like the full develop module. I think the only answer is they needed to make it different to justify having modules. If there is a better reason I'd like to know what it is before I can comment on whether or not it's a good reason. And Scott's criticism is pretty good for me because it shows I'm not the only one frustrated with Quick Develop and find it useless.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Once a feature's in place, as the QD panel is already, then the question becomes "what's the justification for spending engineering hours on changing it". If you come up with a justification, great. But just to say "because I'm frustrated and so is Scott" doesn't give the team the information they'd need in making a decision. If they're going to improve it, they'd need to know exactly what it is about it that you're finding so frustrating. Other than that, it's just noise. So I'll ask again... can you explain what's wrong with the buttons, and why you think sliders would be better? How is that a misery? How would sliders help? And how would you imagine that working?

As far as the reasons go for buttons vs. sliders, think about a couple of things: the idea is that it allows you to make relative adjustments to multiple photos, right? Say QD now had sliders instead of buttons... if one of those photos is set to 0 exposure and another is set to +1 exposure, where should your slider slider be set? 0? 1? 0.5? Buttons allow you to say "add +1 exposure to the current setting regardless of its current setting". And if you then made some adjustments in the Develop module, should your slider move?
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Photographe

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I am not sure I follow that. Other people have requested that the Develop Module should allow relative adjustments in addition to absolute adjustments, which has its virtues. If you are suggesting that the QD is a back-door to that feature, then I am not sure I like that solution. It means jumping back and forth between modules depending on whether you want absolute or relative adjustments.

The way I'd like to use QD is this: since the use of the Library module is, among other things, to choose which photos are keepers, I like to have an idea of what my photo will look like at that stage. Currently, I find it quicker to jump to the Develop Module, quickly adjust the photo, and come back to the Libray Module than attempting to fiddle with the buttons. The sliders work well--no one disputes that, which is why they are in the Develop Module. The buttons are awkward, and when you come back to the photo you don't know how many times you've pressed them. The only use for QD for me has been to try pressing Auto to get a quick idea of what the photo might look like, but often I don't like what I see, so I press Contrl-Z and jump to Develop, make a few adjustments and come back to the Library.

Basically, I think they got the sliders right in Develop Module. Relative adjustments can be useful at times, and I wouldn't mind seeing that added to the Develop Module.

The reason I provided the link to Scott's blog is that those words rang true for me when I read them, and apparently many others as well unless you are disincligned to believe Scott for some reason. Personally I value both his insights and yours, and in this case I think you have been a bit cavalier in your dismissal and have have not provided a convincing rationale (unless I misunderstood your rationale which is entirely possible).
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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I'm not knocking Scott, and I'm not dismissing your idea. I'm trying to help you here.

I'm suggesting that "I don't like" isn't a feature request that's going to get any traction, even if 2 or more people say it, and even if one of those is Scott. It needs to be more descriptive.

If you want to be heard, you need to think it through properly and explain WHY you want the behavior to change. What is it exactly that you don't like, and if they were changed to sliders, how would you transfer all of the functionality, so that you don't remove features? Let me give you a really rough example:


I find the sliders in the Develop module easier to use than the Quick Develop buttons because I can see how far I've moved a slider. The problem is that I then have to switch to Develop module every time I want to make a quick adjustment.

I would therefore like to see sliders in the Library module.

I understand that buttons are needed for relative adjustments because if multiple photos are selected, each may have a different value.

I would like to suggest that the relative adjustment buttons be added to main Basic panel in the Develop module, so that relative adjustments can be made from either module. This would save me constantly switching modules.

I would also like to suggest that the Quick Develop panel get the same interface, and that the new sliders would work on the most selected photo, just like they do in the Develop module, and the buttons would still offer relative adjustments for multiple photos as they do currently.

If multiple photos are selected, the sliders could become unavailable, could work on the active photo only, or could work like AutoSync.


You'd need to think it through a bit further, but do you understand what I mean? The engineers could then read that and either think, yes, no, or we can compromise. They may say that they can't put sliders in the Quick Develop panel for technical reasons (i.e. QD needs to work in fixed increments as it's working on previews, or some such), but they could help solve the problem of seeing how far you've moved a slider by putting a text field at the end of the buttons showing the current value. That's why they need to understand the whole situation rather than just "it's frustrating".

As a side point, have you ever used the Quick Develop panel for editing multiple photos or for relative adjustments? Did you understand what I meant when I was talking about the different values and the problems of using a slider in those circumstances?
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Photographe

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Victoria--Thank you for taking the time to write that. It is very well written and sensitive to my concerns. The fact that you don't agree with it makes it even more remarkeable. My guess, if I may say so (and I am not a bad judge of these things), is that you are a great asset to your clients. I have learned something from this exchange. I hope that Adobe does something great with LR 4, but I will not be one of the people pushing them along.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Thank you Photographe. I know Lightroom's not perfect, but I want to help, whether that be getting the best out of it as it is, or in helping people to express their wishes in a way that's more likely to be heard.

It certainly sounds like Lightroom's not the ideal program for you at the moment, and maybe one day in the future you'll wander back this way and find it's developed into the tool you need. In the meantime, I wish you all the best in your search for the right software for you.
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Photographe

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Thank you for everything you did today. You will not hear any complaints.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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I agree, I'd like to see more fine tuning on relative adjustment. There are many occasions when I just want to tweak a bunch of files by a small amount, particularly on temp and tint at high iso, where large adjustments make huge changes to the colours.
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I think it is reasonable to consider that the granularity offered represents the practical limit of what is visible in Grid view. Can you really see a .1 Stop decrease in exposure across a group of thumbnails?

I also think it reasonable to consider that a DSLR (or a Flash) typically offers exposure adjustments in 1/3 stop increments (Some are set to 1/2 stop by default) just like the single-arrowed QD button. That seems almost on-purpose?

I think the arrow metaphor serves the cumulative nature of the QD tools up much better than making them sliders whose function is an absolute adjustment. The Exposure buttons in QD do not do the same thing as the exposure slider in D. I think that converting these to sliders muddies the clarity of their function.

Those are concrete justifications and far better than a generic "so and so says"
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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If the thumbnails are big enough, then yes, you can see 0.1 stop difference, and my customers expect my exposure to be that close (processing for other people). And although a camera and flash only adjust in 1/3 stop increments, film labs would have then been able to tweak further.

That said, I'd limit the sliders with smaller increments - exposure, temp and tint would make me very happy, even if with a modifier key - as the other buttons are small enough increments IMHO.
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I could accept a modifier key as a smaller increment adjustment. The Alt/Opt key that modifies and constrains movement on things like the Point Curve is a good example of implementation. Would I use it? That remains to be seen.

To my original rational, I would second your other post on the value of the slider when images of multiple Exposure values have already been set. This is as good a rational as any as to why these should not ever become sliders. I fear that those who would see this changed do not understand the value and ease of incremental changes to masses of images.

I, however am not going to touch that film comment ;-)
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It disappoints me that every time a suggestion to improve either Develop or Quick Develop shows up that we devolve into why we need to merge Dev and Quick Dev, or to do away with the buttons in Quick Dev. I love Quick Dev and I use it all the time. I'm also very happy with the 1/3 and full stop adjustments that are currently assigned to each button. I would be happy to allow a different amount of adjustment, but please don't take the buttons away. They are fast, easy, and come with a known granularity. If you want sliders, go to Develop.

Having said all this, I would also love to have relative adjustments in the Develop module (and Lee Jay's suggested method is awesome) but that in no way implies that the current Quick Develop panel should go away. It has some really great uses (like to Quickly make a few Develop adjustments) and just because some of you don't use it doesn't mean that it needs to go.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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FWIW, I like the QD panel exactly as it is too. My example above was simply to illustrate how a request would be better phrased, and not representative of my personal feelings.
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Rob Cole

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I dont think anyone is suggesting that the *functionality* of the quick develop panel should go away (or if they are its the vast *minority*) - quite the contrary: I think people are trying to figure out how to *add* functionality. But note: one can not switch to the develop module for finer control, because there is no relative bulk adjustment capability in dev module. Yes, the QD's primary intended purpose was for coarse adjustment whilst perusing in library module, but I regularly switch to it during development too for relative adjustments in bulk, provided it has the adjustments I want and provided they are not too heavy handed. If I want to adjust other adjustments relatively in bulk, or the basics more light handedly, I use the DevAdjust plugin, since there is no way to do it in Lightroom proper.

So, the goal of this FR/Idea was to at least allow some way to adjust more finely in QD - I honestly dont care too much how that gets added (and I'm not suggesting the coarse buttons be removed since people have become accustomed to them, and they are good for what they were intended for). As a side note: I would also prefer lib+dev modules be combined and relative adjustment be added to auto-sync - but that's a separate FR/Idea (actually, I would prefer the selection handling and targeting be done differently, and auto-sync as a mode eliminated altogether - but that's *never* going to happen).

Summary:
------------
This FR/Idea is for some way to have finer control over the existing relative adjustments, without removing the coarse adjustments that we know and love.

That said, it can't help but beg the suggestion of other improvements to dev & relative adjustment handling that many of us would also like to see.

One more ultra-simple idea: just add a third button, so its:
exposure:
button #1: .1
button #2: .3
button #3: 1.
temperature:
button #1: 50
button #2: 300-ish
button #3: 1000-ish
tint:
button #1: 1
button #2: 5-ish
button #3: 15-ish
etc.
i.e. same as now except with the addition of a smaller increment button.

Bottom Line:
---------------
Presently we have "Medium & Large", which is good. I'm suggesting we have "Small, Medium, & Large" - which would be better.
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"As a side note: I would also prefer lib+dev modules be combined and relative adjustment be added to auto-sync - but that's a separate FR/Idea"

Exactly my point. Every single discusson in this forum that involves Quick Develop or Relative adjustments ends up with someone suggesting that Library and Develop should be combined, and I'm pretty confident that the vast majority of people don't want that.

"(actually, I would prefer the selection handling and targeting be done differently, and auto-sync as a mode eliminated altogether - but that's *never* going to happen). "

People complaining about Auto-Sync is another disappointing meme on this site...
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Rob Cole

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The reason people bring these things up is:

1. For "many" of us: first choice would be to re-work how lib+dev/relative-adjustments&auto-sync works. In which case the present FR/Idea would be null&void.

But *if* that isn't going to happen, then the present changes up for discussion would be good.

In other words, its more of a qualification and explanation than an attempt to hijack or initiate discussion of the other FR/Ideas...

I understand some people like the lib/dev separation, etc. - more power to 'em, and its one reason it may never be changed (or at least not all at once - maybe only incrementally over time, so nobody goes ballistic...) I have no sense of what the majority wants, since I only hear from the vocal few - from both "sides". I bet Adobe has a much better feel for it.

I'm sorry if bringing up these seemingly off-topic matters irks you - but they do seem relevant, yet your point is well taken - *this* FR/Idea is only about finer control over the existing relative bulk adjustments (alias QD).
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sizzlingbadger

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You do bulk changes in the Dev module by using AutoSync - granted its not relative though.

I don't mind Lib and Dev being separate, I just want to see my folders in Dev too.
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Rob Cole

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Right - not relative.

I think Lib+Dev integration will be ongoing, i.e. incremental changes - one version at a time - my guess: Folders are next... ;-}

And, Adobe has already divulged that relative presets are "under consideration", so probably we'll some some integration of relative adjustments with the Dev module too.

I'm trying to maintain hope for Lr4, whilst simultaneously limiting expectations... - Cheers, R.
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I just used quick develop for the first time (in conjunction with auto-sync) to tweak the exposure up on all the images on a shoot my assistant had adjusted on her own PC in LR. I found a few of the sets consistently under exposed, so having the ability to just add 1/3 stop to the entire set was perfect and saved a bunch of time. In other sets however I would have preferred the option to say increase by 0.2, so I ended up having to tweak every image manually in develop mode. I would therefore love to have the ability to be able to configure the adjustment values applied to the quick develop buttons such that I can be more selective when the button is clicked. This is a great forum for ideas - and a great suggestion by the OP!
Paul A
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Rob Cole

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Hi Paul,

You don't need to enable auto-sync when using quick-develop, "auto-sync" is implied in grid view (maybe you already knew that - I couldn't tell).

Cheers,
Rob
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Paul Cockerill

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Best solution I can see here is a keyboard modifier. It could even make the inner buttons increment by the smallest amount possible and the outer ones by twice that amount.

Quick develop is brilliant but it annoys me to have to move to the develop module if something really needs a finer asjustment.

It's not quick develop then is it!
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Kimberley Chen

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YES! I would love to see this. It doesn't seem like it should be difficult for them to make the granularity configurable by the user.
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Bill Mellen

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Yes, please make the granularity configurable by user! Modern cameras get the exposure so close that .1 would be good for exposure most of the time.

It is awkward to go to the develop module (it takes too long). Back and forth between grid and loupe view is quick. Using the mouse to adjust the slider in develop is clumsy for me. Clicking the arrows is easier.