Feature to remove banding in photos from mirrorless cameras

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Newest mirrorless digital cameras seem to have issues with banding. It would be great if Lightroom would have a feature to remove or reduce this banding.
These particular kinds of banding can appear apparently due to on-sensor phase detect detectors messing up with the quality of the  image (especially when lifting up shadows in post production), or when using digital (AKA silent) shutter with very short exposure under LED lights (which seems to produce rainbow-like vertiacal color gradients in the photo).

These banding issues have recently been reported e.g. in latest fullframe mirrorless cameras from Sony, Nikon and Canon.

Sony Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Dgf4Bij7U

Nikon Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MKDB9dOSp4

Canon Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwUHBolbCbU

Not sure if these are possible to fix in post by Lightroom, but if possible, it would really improve the quality of images from modern cameras.



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Teppo Kotirinta

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Posted 4 weeks ago

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Andrew Rodney

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Banding can be in the actual image data (rare for raw) or in the display path; which is which?
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Andrew Rodney

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BTW, only way to examine for banding is in Develop module at 1:1 or greater zoom. Still could be banding in the Display not image data. Ditto for ACR.
(Edited)
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I believe the banding is already in the actual image data. There’s nothing “wrong” in LR. I was just hoping LR could improve the image data that cameras produce in this case too.
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Andrew Rodney

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Upload a raw!
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Andrew Rodney

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I’ve got a mirror less system and no banding and a fully high bit display path. The later is the only way to avoid all visible banding.
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Teppo Kotirinta

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Jared Polin, who did one of the Sony banding videos, has RAW files available here:
http://froknowsphoto.com/wp-content/u...

His original Youtube video about the issue is here:
https://youtu.be/F9Dgf4Bij7U
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Andrew Rodney

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The link for the raw file is no good.So you have no actual raw files where you see the banding?
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I don’t have any. I don’t have these new cameras yet, but about to buy one. Too bad he screwed up those links. Please check these new, different links:
https://froknowsphoto.com/my-sony-a9-...
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Andrew Rodney

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You need to realize that there are two places were banding can occur. One is in the display path. The other is in the image data. If the banding is in the image data then we need to see proof. However if the banding is in the display path there is absolutely nothing that Adobe can do to fix this. This is a hardware issue. This is not an image data issue.
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I’m not sure what is “display path”.

However, LR can remove noise, which caused by hardware and written into the “image data”. This banding here is just specific kind of color noise that occurs in horizontal and vertical “bands” only. It’s clearly visible in those YouTube videos.

We’re you not able to open the second link with Sony A9 examples?
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Andrew Rodney

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LR absolutely cannot remove noise from the display path! It's like asking to clone a spot that resides on the surface of the display rather than cleaning off the display! The banding may be in the image data. I doubt it from any raw file that isn't massively incorrectly handled (exposed for one). High bit raw files should have ZERO data banding. Display path banding has NOTHING to do with image data. You're asking to fix an issue that doesn't exist unless you can provide proof the high bit raw exhibits banding and so far, no such files have been provided. 
Examine this file below. See ANY banding whatsoever? If you do, it's your display path. 
 http://digitaldog.net/files/10-bit-test-ramp.zip
Now read this:
http://digitaldog.net/files/TheHighBitdepthDebate.pdf

You absolutely CAN NOT gauge banding viewing a video over the net. You MUST provide access of the raw data to people like myself that DO have high bit display paths where banding ONLY shows when banding exists IN the image data. Understand? 
(Edited)
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Andrew Rodney

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>>I’m not sure what is “display path”. 

Video card, display, OS, application; all must be 'high bit' (more than 8-bits per color). Any part of this path that isn't high bit, converts to 8-bits per color and you can then see banding on-screen. EVEN if there's NO data banding. See? You may have perfectly fine image data and see banding. It's not the image data, it's not the camera, there's nothing Adobe can 'fix'. Is your video card 10-bit? How about your web browser (very unlikely). Until couple years ago, Photoshop on Mac wasn't high bit savvy through the display path.  And not all modules in Adobe products provide high bit previews!!! The previews in all modules in LR expect develop are JPEGs. You must view the raw in Develop at 1:1 or greater. Even in Develop, you may see banding where NONE exists because you've zoomed out of the image and it's being subsampled down for preview. Is there banding? No there isn't. It's simply artifacts of the display system, not the image data. 
The video you watched is bogus. Ignore it. Test your system with the file I provided by viewing at 1:1. If you see ANY banding, it's your display system. Not the data. 
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I tried but I cannot upload the 80MB RAW files here, as there's a 2MB limit. :)
I downscaled one of Fro's images to JPG here. The player's white outfit is all banding.

Actual RAWs (including this image) can still be downloaded directly from: 

Sample BANDING RAW images 01
Sample BANDING RAW images 02
Sample BANDING RAW images 03







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Andrew Rodney

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Your image example above is meaningless and I've explained why. Until you can provide a raw file for proper examination, you're wasting both or our time here. But at least you know the technical reasons why..... 
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I'm sorry I don't understand. Are you not able to click on those RAW image download links? They directly download zip files full of RAW files that are full of these banding issues! How can you say I'm not providing RAW images? They're right there, click the links. :)
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Andrew Rodney

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I've opened that image with the man #3. That is NOT image banding!
Absolutely no way. 
Have you ever heard of a moiré pattern? Look it up. 
Are these your shots? 
IF so, simply properly expose a gray card out of focus. See banding? Upload THAT raw. 
(Edited)
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To me moire is when a sharp detail in the image projected on the sensor has a similar periodicity to the sensor photosite spacing.  Since the areas in these images are out of focus and full of noise so I don't see how this can be moire in the normal sense, at least.

Something is wrong with these images but it is wrong in the various raw converters I've tried.  To me it looks like a sensor issue.  Not having watched the videos I don't know what FroKnows' analysis or conclusion is. 
(Edited)
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Andrew Rodney

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What I see isn’t banding as properly defined.
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Teppo Kotirinta

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Interesting. I've heard of moiré yes, but never seen it manifest itself like this. Still I'm leaning to direction that you are right and the Youtuber is wrong.
These are not my shots, they are provided by the same guy who is on the Youtube video (Jared Polin).

Maybe we'll put this issue to rest for now then. It's a little while longer until these new Nikons and Canons are on sale. If I see banding after getting one, I'll get back to you with a RAW file. :)

Thanks.
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BTW you can share raw files by uploading them to somewhere like DropBox, GoogleDrive, OneDrive, and include a public share link to them in a reply, here.
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Teppo Kotirinta

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I’m. It sure how this forum works. I’m getting email notifications about comments that I then don’t actually see in this thread...

However somebody was also wondering that this doesn’t look like moire. Here’s one of the videos that started this all. Photographer states it only happens with electronic shutter mode (as opposed to standard mechanical shutter) and only at very high shutter speeds.

Those who haven’t seen the video check here. Things start happening at 50 seconds into the video:

https://youtu.be/zv1JCHfXDdY
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These are Sony A9 mirrorless raw files. This is not what is known as gradient "banding." This is sensor-line pixel banding due to an issue with the camera's electronic shutter. What's interesting is that RawDigger displays heavier banding with the unprocessed raw data than in LR. So LR is already doing something to reduce these banding lines. Bottom-line is that this is a camera issue that will be extremely difficult to fully-correct with ANY raw editor.

It is most visible when shooting with electronic shutter (Live View mode) at highISO and fast shutter speeds as in this example:

1/4000 sec., ISO 6400



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Teppo Kotirinta

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Yeah I bet these would be difficult to fix in software, but miracles do happen. :)

Here’s another case of mirrorless banding with new Canon EOS R shadows (image above).

Here’s another guy exposing this issue at 1:44 mark in this video
https://youtu.be/IwUHBolbCbU

And the RAW files for this EOS R case should be downloadable at:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j88a...
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Andrew Rodney

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There's nothing to fix here in software. It's not the banding due to insufficient bit depth which we'd never see from a raw without severe mishandling. Electronic interference or something along those lines perhaps but this isn't fixable in any Adobe software. No more than cleaning off that piece of dirt that landed on your display with a clone tool. And again, as a Sony shooter, I can't replicate this, I run a high bit video path and see nothing like it NOR like the banding usually reported due to insufficient bit depth/editing OR display path oddities. Bottom line is, you're complaining in the wrong forum to the wrong company about the wrong fix. ;-)
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Teppo Kotirinta

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Please don’t get triggered because your favorite brand was mentioned. :) This has also been reported on Nikon and Canon, like I listed in the original post.

Notice also that this is not a complaint, it’s a suggestion for potentially very useful tool that could benefit all users of all brands who are using LR. To me it seems that current noise reduction algorithms already could remove some of this, at least in Canon’s shadow banding case. Potentially tweaking that NR algorithm slightly to target more specifically vertical and horizontal color patterns could simply fix this.

Even though you’re joking, I’m not sure who are you to judge if this is wrong forum to discuss this. I was asked by Lightroom guys on Twitter to post this issue here.
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Andrew Rodney

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>>Please don’t get triggered because your favorite brand was mentioned. :) <<

You're off again. Not my favorite brand, I own Sony and Canon and none produce the effects you show and suggest is banding. Sorry that the facts about how and where banding can occur don't jive with your internet viewing of video's. What you show could easily be an issue with the sensor or a hardware bug but it's not anything Adobe can or should be worrying about. 
In the meantime, you should really examine IF you have a fully high bit display path with the data and document supplied to you hours ago. Or not. But you do need to understand what banding really is, where it can crop up (and why). And if the banding is in the display path or the image path. 
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Teppo Kotirinta

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“What you show could easily be an issue with the sensor or a hardware bug but it's not anything Adobe can or should be worrying about.”

Maybe they don’t need to “worry “ about it, but surely it can be considered. I’m pretty sure that Canon shadow banding at least is real, I’ve seen similar in Canon files before. Surely it’s Adobe’s aim to create the best rendering of RAW files and fix as many problems in them as possible, if they wish to be the best software they can. But I do realize that this may not an issue at all in the end.

Please tell how those photographers and thus me are using the term “banding” incorrectly. Or what should this be called then? I wish to use common terms so that the term is not what’s being discussed, but the substance is.

Also note that I have not found out this issue, it’s those professional photographers who have (they are indeed practicing photographers). We don’t know, but one would assume they have at least as good display path as you. And they see the issue. I see the issue clearly on my recent Touchbar MacBook Pro.

Assuming you have great display path, could tell us can you see the banding in those supplied RAW images? If you cannot, then maybe it really is this display path issue. If I understood your point correctly.
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Andrew Rodney

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1. Again! There's nothing for Adobe to fix. GIGO:Garbage In Garbage Out. 
2. You're addressing the wrong company assuming you're certain all Sony cameras produce this result. Mine doesn't. 
3. You now know what a display path is, how banding can occur there I hope. So you know there's more than one cause of banding and one cause is solely due to  banding from your own hardware used for viewing images. Someone else may see no such banding on their systems! 
4. Assuming you have a high bit display path, IF you see banding when viewing the data correctly, it's in the image data, NOT the display path. But if you don't know if you have a full high bit display path, and I've shown you HOW to evaluate if you do (I certainly do), if you see banding at 1:1 in the correct preview architecture, and that's critical to do so, then the banding isn't in the display path, it's in the image data. 
I don't know how to explain these facts any clearer for you. FROM a professional photographer who has no banding in either path. 
(Edited)
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Teppo Kotirinta

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There’s no need to keep explaining the display path constantly. I understood the first time. If it’s unclear, I do see the banding at 1:1 zoom in these files.

Todd Shaner (few messages above) is seeing the issue in the images too and believes it’s “sensor-line pixel banding”. That seems like a more fruitful direction to take this discussion.
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Andrew Rodney

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>> If it’s unclear, I do see the banding at 1:1 zoom in these files. 
But the specific file I supplied that would tell you about your display path? 
And Todd is correct; what is shown can and should be 'fixed' by Sony. 
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Teppo Kotirinta

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Oh your test file I had indeed missed earlier. Sorry for that. Tested it now. And no, I don't see any banding in it on my system. It's nice and smooth grey gradient.
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Andrew Rodney

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Good, that indicates you have a full high bit display path. Which everyone who cares about banding needs to know; banding in data or banding in display path. Now order a camera and examine the raws, properly zoomed on-screen and you should see no banding if that camera is producing bug free raw data. And if not? Send it back and forget Adobe doing anything to fix a raw file that's bordering on corruption of good image data.