Photoshop: Curves Adjustment under 32 bit/channel

  • 7
  • Idea
  • Updated 3 years ago
  • (Edited)
Merged

This conversation has been merged. Please reference the main conversation: Photoshop: Enable Curves other Adjustments for 32bits/channels image

I like to see curve (adjustment layer) implemented under 32 bit mode. This would make it possible to make my own tone remaping and enable me to see the image naturally while working on it in this mode.
You would need to adjust the tool for linear float ranges.
Photo of Tom Schwarz

Tom Schwarz

  • 3 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes

Posted 7 years ago

  • 7
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 846 Reply Likes
You do understand that 32 bit/channel is floating point, and has infinite positive and negative range?
Photo of Tom Schwarz

Tom Schwarz

  • 3 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
Hello Chris,
Yes of course. There is float orientated compositing tools out there which have curve editiors that allow the user to scroll and scale the coordinate system view to their taste although practically you rarely would exceed a dynamic range beyond 20 stops.
Photo of Giancarlo Lari

Giancarlo Lari

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Mr Cox, we do understand "32 bit/channel is floating point, and has infinite positive and negative range". I suggest you read "The HDRI Handbook 2.0" to understand how curve adjustments works in other applications in 32bit.
Or you may look into another Adobe product, After Effects as curve adjustments have been available there for years now.
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 845 Reply Likes
AE curves don't work on the full range.
We have looked at other products and done some user testing -- and so far there is no good UI (or user understanding) for working with the full HDR range. It's a bit more complicated than most imagine.
Photo of Giancarlo Lari

Giancarlo Lari

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
AE does work on the full range, or at least work in full range enough to be functional: I just tested it and it retained values over 1.0 after a curve adjustment effect. And "finesse" effect works just as well. It does help to add toe and shoulder to an 32bit image without converting to 8/16bit, so it's definitively better than what we currently have in Photoshop, which is nothing.
Photo of k m

k m

  • 2 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Chris, you do understand that the are other apps, like Nuke, that do this sort of thing in a functionally decent manner? Personally, if I were an engineer with Photoshop I'd rather deliver the hack that works - as it does in nuke - rather than maintain the superior attitude that comes from knowing I'm "technically correct". Just sayin'.

As Blochi mentions below, I can understand that this is a fairly major effort to get going, but honestly the Curve Editor is really overdue for an upgrade. I think it hasn't changed since what, v3 or so...
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 845 Reply Likes
Please read the previous responses. Again: we have looked at the UI from other apps that attempt to do this.
Photo of k m

k m

  • 2 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
...and doing nothing was seen as a more viable option than to engineer something that works? What are you waiting for?
Photo of Blochi

Blochi

  • 3 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Chris, you say:
"so far there is no good UI ... for working with the full HDR range."

I don't necessarily agree, but if that are your findings then just giving up doesn't sound like the appropriate reaction. It sounds like a perfect opportunity to innovate. Steve Jobs started a talk the same way: "We looked at all the MP3 players out there, and none had a an intuitive interface." Instead of dropping the subject, he made the iPod.
Photo of Giancarlo Lari

Giancarlo Lari

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
We did read the previous responses, for years now. And we know you looked into "UI from other apps that attempt to do this": what we are appalled from is that choosing to leave the adjustment curve only available in 8/16bit is the only course you think is possible, which is not as we would be perfectly happy to have it implemented the way it's *already* done in After Effects, regardless if it is imperfect or not. We've been using AE curve adjustment for years now as a non destructive workflow to preview a tone mapping while staying in 32bit: I wish we weren't forced to export an image from photoshop just to perform this simple task, a very simple for AE but apparently insurmountable for PS.
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 845 Reply Likes
Who says I've given up? You're jumping to bad conclusions.
Photo of Giancarlo Lari

Giancarlo Lari

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
So far (since CS2 to be precise) is the only conclusion we can get from your answers... Tell us something different please.
Photo of Blochi

Blochi

  • 3 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Oh, well, I apologize for jumping the conclusions. Must have misread your post.

Under this new light I'm very glad that you looked at all the other 32-bit curve implementations and decided to do it even better. Fusion's bezier handles are sometimes hard to grab, and having the horizontal axis displayed in Log space would be much more intuitive as well as show a more comprehensible histogram. And you probably also found out that not only the graph display needs to be zoomable, but the user should be able to scale all the curve adjustments to better cope with unexpected luminance peaks.

I'm very excited to see the curve interface you come up with.
Photo of kim

kim

  • 9 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Can I ask what the point of a 32 bit mode is if most of the software doesn't work with it? Is it Adobe policy to only half do everything it starts?
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 845 Reply Likes
That doesn't relate to this topic, and makes very little sense.
Photo of kim

kim

  • 9 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
I was expanding on a topic about a feature missing from 32 bit mode, I don't see that the topic shouldn't be generalised.

And to ask why half the feature set is missing makes perfect sense to almost everybody. Except you who regularly, it seems, fails to see the sense in anything sensible.
Photo of Giancarlo Lari

Giancarlo Lari

  • 5 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
I do see too that the abandoned development of the rest of tools in 32bit is closely related to this topic... When talking to my collegue is the main reason there is still resistance tobwork in 32bit. Mr. Cox are you suggesting to open a new thread for these instead to discuss it in here? Shall we open an individual thread for each of the old tools like dodge, burn, magic wand, color range, plus the Reduce Noise filter and the Color Balance adjustment?
Photo of Chris Cox

Chris Cox

  • 20280 Posts
  • 845 Reply Likes
Yes, this topic is about something specific. To keep the discussion on track (much less to track interest), we need to stick to a single topic.

But please realize that many of those tools rely on math that CANNOT work in 32 bit/channel. If you have a specific need for something to work in 32 bit/channel - tell us what that need is, and we'll see if we can make the function work, or explain why it cannot be made to work.
Photo of Blochi

Blochi

  • 3 Posts
  • 1 Reply Like
Although the numerical range in 32-bit is close to infinity, the data is not.

There are curve interfaces that allow manipulating this data with great success. Don't look at After Effects, rather look at Fusion or Nuke.

What makes these curve interfaces succeed are:

- the window can be expanded to fill more screen area. I can go fullscreen for fine tuning
- you can zoom out of the graph to show value ranges beyond 1
- you can set curve points anywhere, including the super-bright areas beyond 1
- you can use bezier handles to adjust the outgoing slope, after the last keyframe. Bezier handles are also very useful to adjust the slope elsewhere on the curve.
- to identify and prevent unwanted crossing of the RGB channels it is necessary to see RGB curves drawn at the same time.

None of these are currently possible in Photoshop's Curve interface, and so I can see why making curves 32-bit capable would require a lot of engineering effort. But I think these features would also benefit the Curves interface in general.

Christian Bloch
Photo of Tom Schwarz

Tom Schwarz

  • 3 Posts
  • 4 Reply Likes
I think there is actually a good point made that improving the curve editor in the described ways would not only benefit the 32 bit mode but also provide more precision, control and comfort when working in integer bit modes.

And then the only difference would be that you would need to be able to expand the scale beyond 1, in 32 bit mode.

I know that there is concern that implementations of this sort are too technical for the average user. But I think it would be fair to assume that people who use the 32 bit mode have an understanding of why and when they are operate in it and the functions they use to do so.

The additions Christian describes would still be very intuitive and by default you could leave the editor the same in size and curve type to start with, so users wouldn't be confused by the new functionality.
Photo of Markus Johan Schille

Markus Johan Schille

  • 2 Posts
  • 0 Reply Likes
Please implement a curve interface in 32 bit mode. I would also love to see the Lumetri Color interface from Premiere/After Effects implemented into Photoshop for full compatibility accross the board. That would allow me to apply the same colorcorrections to images in Photoshop as I have in used in After effects. After effects is not very good at handling high resolution images and crashes when I import an image that is 25000 x 14000 in 32 bit. Now I have to try to recreate the comp in Photoshop and try to mimic the same color corrections, but it isn't easy, and Photoshop doesn't even allow me to use curves in 32 bit mode.
Photo of PECourtejoie

PECourtejoie, Champion

  • 795 Posts
  • 288 Reply Likes
I'm wondering how the AE teams handles the issues raised by Chris...

This conversation is no longer open for comments or replies.