Lightroom Classic: Better keyword management

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How about some better support for keyword management. It's very basic now. I would like to do the following tasks:- Delete multiple keywords at once. Not all plugins do handle hierarchy keywords well and add all the keywords to the root level. It's a tedious task to delete them one by one.- Search for duplicates.- Merge keywords. With lots of tricks, it can be done, but it's so inefficient.- Import keywords from within any level in the keyword hierarchy. Now you can only import keywords to the root level.- And for now last but most important: Real external editing of the keyword list. Moving keywords around and doing real heavy reorganization is difficult in LR. I would like to have an editing option like exporting and when reimported all changes are reflected in LR.
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Joop Snijder

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Posted 8 years ago

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Shangara Singh

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Well, Bridge also orders keywords alphabetically without your consent if you use a hierarchy. You have to fool it if you don't want the keywords to retain your order.

Add my name to the growing list of disappointed...
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john beardsworth

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Is retaining the alphabetical order of keywords an IPTC standard - I don't think so - or is this need peculiar to how Alamy rank images? If it is only an Alamy thing, there is a plugin which may help - see http://www.lightroom-plugins.com/Alam...
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paulwasserman

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What's particularly disappointing is the fact that fixing the forced alphabetical sort of keywords has been asked for in every version.

What's the point of participating in these forums if key workflow features keep getting ignored, often in favor of one more bullet point for the features list.
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Greg Vaughn

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John Beardsworth: I don't believe alpha ordering of keywords is an IPTC standard, and yes, in my case I'm largely interested in making the workflow faster/easier with Alamy (especially since they require keywords to be divided in essential, main, etc.). The plugin looks promising - I'll give it a try.

Still, I don't see why Lightroom can't give us the option of alpha or user-determined priorty ordering of keywords. Especially annoying is if you keyword in Bridge/Photoshop and then import the image to LR, the keyword order is changed.
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john beardsworth

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It would be interesting to know if this resolves the problem for you, Greg. If so, would it be right for Lightroom to bypass non-alphabetical sorting as an exceptional workflow for Alamy and instead put any development effort into other aspects of key wording?
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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I too would prefer to see better keywording facilities built-in to LR. But given that Adobe's resources are finite, a cheaper way for Adobe to ameliorate users' needs might be to enhance the SDK to provide a complete set of fast keyword operations. Then plugins could meet the various needs of many users, such as batch reorganizing, changing keyword attributes such as Include On Export, finding orphan keywords, tagging optimized for particular workflows, and such.

Currently, the SDK's support for keywords is missing the following:

- The ability to change the name, attributes (Include on Export, Export Containing Keywords, Export Synonyms), and synonyms of existing keywords.

- Get the count of the number of photos to which the keyword is assigned.

- Get the exact list of photos to which a keyword is assigned (smart collections only provide an approximate list, in general).

- Delete a keyword.

- Change the parent of a keyword.

- Fast access to keywords. Currently the SDK lets plugins access about 100 keywords per second on Windows, which is impracticably slow for large hierarchies. (It's about 6 times faster on Mac.) A cheap improvement would be to provide batch access to the keywords, similar to the batch access to metadata, avoiding the likely culprit, the LR task scheduler on Windows.

Plug-ins are almost never as good as having the functionality built-in, but they're often much better than nothing.
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TK

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Paul Wasserman write "What's the point of participating in these forums if key workflow features keep getting ignored, often in favor of one more bullet point for the features list.".

That's a very good question. I don't see any of the LR4 highlights anywhere near the top of the feature request list. Are participants of this forum regarded as geeks who do not represent the majority of (future) Lightroom users?
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Tanja Schulte

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there is no reason.... adobe is just laughing at people thinking this forum has any influence on decisions made.
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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There's no need to spam the forum Tanja - that'll just get your posts deleted. This forum DOES have an influence over which features are added - from memory, the top 3 major features were all included in the latest release. If you want to get some movement on this topic, feel free to drum up extra votes among other Lightroom users.
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Louis Sherwin

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Another year, another release and zero keyword enhancements. :-(

-louie
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Rob Cole

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And zero keyword bug fixes, or did I miss something?
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Tanja Schulte

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yeah well... get used to it.

until adobe gets real competition they will do nothing.
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J Evans

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I am currently seriously considering buying Canto single user to do my keywording in Canto and not bother purchasing an upgrade to Lightroom 5 as I think the keywording in Canto will be more flexible to my needs than can be done in Lightroom. I would prefere to do everything in the same programme though but if no keywording upgrades come to LR soon then Canto it is ( I have an old Mediadex licence that I used before switching the catalogue to LR so can get Canto for 50% discount)
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rachel channon

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UNDESIRABLE JUMPING OF KEYWORDS
I have a long list of keywords that need to be rearranged/sorted. for example I might have some specific names such as anthrenus or podisus that are currently standalone keywords and that I want to drop and drag into the hierarchy animal-insect. If the list of keywords (filtered or unfiltered) is longer than the height of the window, then when i click to select the first keyword to move, then the cursor immediately jumps to the top.

For example, if anthrenus and podisus are both near the bottom of the list and i want to drag them to the top, this means that i first click on anthrenus, INVOLUNTARY JUMPING to top of keyword list, scroll back down, Ctrl-click on podisus, INVOLUNTARY JUMPING to top of keyword list, scroll back down, then drag and drop both into the animal-insect hierarchy.
A partial but tedious work around is to filter sufficiently to reduce the number of visible keywords to less than the height of the window. But this means that when i am going thru a list of keywords to decide where to put them, i have to keep re-filtering to reduce the size. for example, in this case, i could filter on "insect anthrenus podisus" to get all three keywords visible. but if there happened to be another insect such as oncopeltus hidden in the list that i overlooked, i have now hidden this name, so I wont see it until i clear the filter, at which point i will need to re-filter for "insect oncopeltus", and so on. This is a real time-waster.
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Louis Sherwin

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Yes I noticed this as well.
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Roger Walton

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How about a complete window-size keywording panel - navigating the thin strip is quite tricky with the constant scrolling necessary.
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nahcr

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good idea, especially because the font in the keyword is rather small and cant be changed afaik.
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Monty

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Excellent idea!  I would love to see a larger keywording panel!
Monty
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Louis Sherwin

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Well it been three years since this topic was started. I'm not optimistic that any of these suggestions will see the light of day.

What to you say Adobe?
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Louis Sherwin

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I wonder if there will be any changes in LR6? Probably not, as indicated by Adobe's nonresponse so far to any of these requests this seems to be a dead issue.

-louie
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John R. Ellis, Champion

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Yeah, there have been very changes to the Library since LR 3 -- Adobe's attention seems focused elsewhere, unfortunately.
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Tanja Schulte

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adobes focus is on hooking people to the cloud.. making money without doing something in return.

once you are in the cloud you have to pay anyway....

and don ́t get me started with the unusable beta features we get every 6 month.
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Emily Socolov

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Absolutely agree with earlier comments.

You should be able to scroll the Keyword list while still keeping the Keywording pane in view.

This is very frustrating.
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Peter Blandford

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As discussed here https://forums.adobe.com/message/7515... I have hundreds of keywords that have somehow been defined as people when they are not. The only way to change them to "other" is a three step process for each one. Surely there should be a better way?
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Louis Sherwin

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Another major release and still none of these reasonable requests have been addressed. I would be overjoyed with simply the ability to search for phrases with imbedded spaces instead of "assuming" a logical OR. Come ON Adobe. All of us photographers live in the real world and have to deal with real things that have spaces in the descriptions.
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Ian M Butterfield

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Another voice to this request. Not only is keywording and keyword management in need of a major overhall as described in this request but it is totally non-existant in LR Mobile which is the task that LR Mobile is REALLY suited for.
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Sara Hedgpeth

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Keywording is one of the things I've been hoping would be fixed/improved with every succeeding version of Lightroom, but I guess it's just not sexy enough to attract developers' attention. (Or probably not sexy enough to attract management's attention.)

I am also absolutely dying for a keyword tool where I can set standards for all new keywords like don't export 3rd level keywords or don't export synonyms or set all new "people" keywords to not export.

Another feature on my wish list is the ability to click on a photo's keyword symbol and have a popup show up with the assigned keywords - I don't always have the keyword panel open and it would be nice to not have to scroll up or down and click the keyword panel open.

Since this topic is 4 years old I don't hold old much hope for any improvements soon, but I just had to let out my frustration since I'm in the middle of keywording 1000 pictures.
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Kaffeesegler

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Don't give up, at least we got finally CMYK soft proofing (which was "technically impossible", as we were told in the years before ;-)
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Assoc Prof karl Reed

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As an IT person with 50 years experience, and, a software engineering academic of some small standing, I despair about the failure to use standard IR and query techniques on Lightroom and many other systems and web pages that support key words and querying. Simple boolean expressions are easy to understand and easy to implement. Simple conjunctive searches that treat the key word string K1 K2 ...Kn as K1 AND K2 AND ...Kn and do not require one to nominate the filed that the Ki in are liberating. Someone at Melbourne Uni built a front end for bib/roff under unix that did this, and, I used it for years.
Right now, I don't seem to be able to make catalog wide searches on Lightroom 4. That is an awful pain.
Come on adobe, fix these things! Surely you can do better than the Open Source projects like Thunderbird that ignore problems?
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Victoria Bampton - Lightroom Queen, Champion

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Why aren't you able to make catalog wide searches? If you select the All Photographs collection and select some search criteria, what happens? (And yes I understand the available criteria is limited, but just want to check there's nothing else going wrong here.)
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Assoc Prof karl Reed

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Ah.. Yes, somehow I missed that, thanks Victoria.. however, my complaint about Boolean searches still stands!
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Dan Hartford Photo

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The Boolean capability of LR filters is somewhat limited. Each column in the filter is AND'd with each other column and multiple selections within a column are Or'd. So you can create (Keyword = A or B) AND (camera = Canon 5d). But what you can't do is (Keyword = "Good" OR Camera = Canon 5d). To do that you must either do multiple steps (e.g., do keyword filter, save results in quick collection, then do camera selection and add those images to QC) or use a smart collection.

Smart collection allow pretty any Boolean logic but the way they implemented it - to try and make it simple for people unfamiliar with Boolean logic - is quite cumbersome to those who just want to type out a Boolean string. In Smart collections, you start by deciding if your level 1 elements are to be "ANY" or "ALL" (OR or AND) in relation to each other. then you add a row for each thing you want in your logic. Many times this is sufficient.

However if you want to mix AND and OR operations you have to nest down to level 2 or lower. Do this by holding down the ALT key (Option on MAC) and the "+" signs at the right end of the level one elements become "#" signs. Click the "#" sign and you start a new group one level lower. This new group consists of rows that can be AND'd or OR's and the result of the entire group is then applied to Level 1. So level one could be ALL (AND) of: Rating=3, Keyword=Fred, Group2. Then group 2 could be ANY (OR) of: Color label = Blue, camera=Canon 5d.

Here's a boolean representation of this: AND (Rating=3, Keyword="Fred", OR (Color=blue, Camera=5d))

Here's the same thing written in a different way: (Rating=3 AND Keyword="Fred" AND (Color=Blue OR Camera=5d))

Like I said, it's a bit complex but once you build a few it is usable. There are some features that would make it easier like being able to drag one row or group to another position rather than having to delete and re-add but at least it can get the job done.

Dan
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Tanja Schulte

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over 4 years and next to nothing happend.......
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dan

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Photoshop: Provide a way to mass change keyword attributes across multiple keywor....

Keywording: Provide a way to mass change keyword attributes across multiple keywords at a time. For example, highlight several Kewords using the Shift or Ctrl keys, then right click one of them and check or uncheck one or more of the checkboxes. The ones changed will be changed in all highlighted Keywords and untouched check boxes will be left alone.
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Louis Sherwin

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This is a good idea. The current one by one is horribly tedious. 

-louie
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Sara Hedgpeth

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Yes, this would also be a great feature! Tired of having to use external tools or use lots of valuable time taking care of these basic tasks.
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Lucinda Lewis

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Yes, in addition to better keywords, it is critical that the metadata remain persistent. There is a problem now that many social media sites, remove metadata from files upon ingestion. It is critical that Adobe exert their influence to preserve the metadata hard-working photographers attach and embed in their files.
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Arne Hegerfors

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"Merge keywords. With lots of tricks, it can be done, but it's so inefficient."
How?
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Dan Hartford Photo

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this process will not work if some images with the KW being merged are buried in collapsed stacks.  First you need to Expand all stacks that may have images with the keyword.  However, many times it's hard to know which folders those are.  So, you have expand all stacks first.  Then Alan's process will work but if you have 10's of thousands of images it's quite a bit of processing and time and then you lose any sense you've applied to which stacks are collapsed vs expanded.  

An alternative method is to create a temporary smart collection where the only rule is that the images have the keyword you want to merge into another.  Smart collections show all images that meet the criteria regardless of stack status.  Then click on the smart collection and select all images and continue with Alan's steps. 
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Assoc Prof karl Reed

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I have no idea how a company adobe can let such a silly system remain. Its' 1960's stuff to come up with a system in which, if I provide <keyword1>,..<keywordn>, it will retrieve every entry that has <keyword1>^..^<keywordn>. (Position independent conjunctive search)This is known to be surprisingly good at retrieving things, because the user does not need to know which attribute has the required keyword.
Now, this can be combined with a simple, attribute independent Boolean search, and then also an attribute based Boolean search. All cases can (given the small size of even the largest collections) allow for unix style wild characters and keywords. The queries can return lists which can be toggled to display other attributes such as locations and folders., and link to them.
Then, as another option, some of the really complex, LR dependent searches can be allowed for.
All these can easily coexist, and, an organisation like adobe can do it all.
BTW, they are not the only ones who mess things like this up!
Karl Reed
(Edited)
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Alan Harper

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Dan

I am sure your comments are correct (I have never used stacks), but your proposed solution runs into another deficiency in Lightroom -- you can't have smart collections with exact match of a keyword. This problem is at least 5 years old, and is especially annoying for those of us who use multi-word keywords. Given your comments about stacks, I guess it is "inefficient" if not "annoyingly difficult" to merge keywords.
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Dan Hartford Photo

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Ahh, good point if you need an exact match.  There are a couple of ways to deal with that in my example with Smart Collections.   One is to put 2 rules in the smart collection, one using "Starts with" and the other using "Ends with" and put the entire keyword into both arguments.  

A second, and simpler, approach is to first bugger up the keyword.  Let's say the keyword is "Red Race Car",  Right click on it and change it to jibberish (e.g.  "QWERTYUIO").  It doesn't really matter what you use as we'll be deleting the entire KW once it's images are merged into another KW anyway.  Just pick text that you are sure doesn't appear (in whole or in part) in any other KW.  Then use the jibberish KW in the Smart Collection Rule using either "contains" or "contains all" and only images with that jibberish KW will be found 

Dan
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Arne Hegerfors

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Ahh, not the kind of merge i'm trying to do.

I want to merge keywords from the picture into catalog of LR. 'Read metadata from file' replace the keywords in the catalog with the keywords in the picture. I want to merge them to LR catalog.

Just to clarify; the keywords saved in the picture was added to files after the picture was added to the LR catalog.
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rachel channon

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I wish lightroom would allow keywords or at least the first N letters of the keywords to show up as headers or footers on the grid and loupe view.  I get 1000 videos that each have to have one keyword attached.  most of the time each one is different from the previous and most of the time they follow in a more or less expected sequence.  if i could see the keywords i have already attached, it would be much less confusing - i would be able to quickly find all the videos that havent been keyworded without hiding the ones that have been keyworded.  if i hide the keyworded files, then i cant remember where i was in the sequence.  thee problems plus the fact that videos do not play automatically when you open them in the loupe view means that i find Dopus easier to use for this task.  and like others have said, why cant we have batch renames for keywords?  and better batch renames for files too.   
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Dan Hartford Photo

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In your comments, I'm not sure what "gloss" means and in your example I assume "sheep" is the KW and the rest of the file name is your code for language, version, signer, date, etc.).  But it sounds like your goal is to wind up with 3 things.  1) a file name that has some text you type in, a version number you supply, and some or all of the originally sent file name.  2) Assign a unique KW to each Video, and 3) be able to see that KW in the grid.  

A couple of ideas.  you can create a file naming pattern preset that gets applied during import.  Part of the file name pattern can include custom text you supply when you use it - you could use this filed for your KW+language+Signer+etc. assuming that could all be one string in the filename - and a sequence number you supply when you use it - which could be your version number.  If you're importing only one video at a time, the sequence number is your version number.  If you import multiple video's at at time it is the starting number.   In the import dialog you can also type or paste in an actual KW on the same screen.  Or, after import, you could just alter the file name of each video by over typing in the file name field in the metadata panel.  At the same time you could cut/paste or type the KW into the Copy Name field which is right below the file name field.  

You may also want to look at the jfriedl "Metadata Wrangler" plug in.  I don't use it, but it may be of some help.

Dan


 
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rachel channon

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two kinds of batch rename - keywords and files.  keywords:  suppose i need to number the keywords temporarily.  i have to either individually drag them to higher level keywords or rename each one individually to have a number.  the example above of changing red to pink is an example of a one-time, not a batch rename.  what if i want to rename every keyword that has red inside it to pink?  or more realistically, i want to change every example of Smith to Jones for multiple individuals?
batch rename of files:  suppose  i add two keywords to a file name, they get separated by commas.  if i want to remove those commas, i have to close lightroom, go to dopus and delete the commas in the filename.  now i go back to lightroom and guess what ive lost all the keywords when i reimport the files.  this kind of behaviour doesnt create a lot of trust that the keywords will be permanent parts of the file.  same thing with entering a date that needs to be corrected or any element of a file name.  all that lightroom allows is additions to a filename.  there is no way to change string xxx to string yyy
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Deb Snelson

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I'd like to see a batch method to remove a single or multiple keywords from MULTIPLE photos at a time.  When I remove the keyword from one image, and try to sync, the keyword is NOT removed from the other photos selected.  It is tedious to open every photo and manually delete a keyword - Adobe, please, create a way to simply delete the keywords from ALL photos selected.  Thanks
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Dan Hartford Photo

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Deb, this capability already exists.  Go to the grid view in the Library module and select the images you want remove the keyword from.  Then, in the right panel group, in the "Keyword List" panel navigate to the keyword you want to take off the images. If all the images selected actually have that KW there will be a check mark to the left of the KW name.  Either click that check mark or right click on the keyword name and select "remove keyword from selected photos",   That's it. 
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Deb Snelson

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Thanks so much Dan!  That worked - I needed to go to grid view rather than use the filmstrip!  I have been struggling with this for so long.... but now I've got it.  Deeply appreciate it!