Photoshop Elements: More 16bit/channel image support

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Will ADOBE PHOTOSHOP ELEMENTS 10 Support 16 Bit Color? As most add-ons and other systems now suppport; even ameteur phot editing liek GIMP and Serif.
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kenneth Vereb

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Posted 7 years ago

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Brett N, Official Rep

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What kind of 16-bit support are you looking for? Photoshop Elements has been able to open and edit 16-bit images for some time (otherwise, Camera Raw support would be negligible). It is true that some filters and effects will not work on 16-bit images, but the same is true of Photoshop as well.
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kenneth Vereb

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Brett, Elements does not support 16 bit in most basic applications. But the most important application to me since I have scanned in negatives is "HEALING TOOLS", which I use to clean up scratches and other defects. This is a simple tool that should handle all colors rather than just 8 bit. Since most sources, cameras and scanners, now support 12 or better bit color, why not have this capability as default on the Element Line?
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Brett N, Official Rep

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The ability to work with the Spot Healing Brush on a 16-bit image is one of the features that works in Photoshop but not Photoshop Elements. While the Elements Editor is powerful, for full strength editing you will need the professional level product. The current versions of Photoshop Elements do have more 16-bit support than the older versions. So increased support in the future, including the Spot Healing Brush, is a possibility.
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Kelly Dazet

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There are a lot of us out here that scan our images from, slides, negatives, and prints as 16/channel tiffs. one of the main functions of PS that we need is the ability to clean up dust and scratches etc and have PSE tell us we have to convert to 8 bit first! We don't need all the tools in the full version of PS, just the basic tools, but the program is worthless if we can't edit in 16 bit! I open these files in ACR and can make some nice adjustments(these files are basically raw scans for me), but can't clean up dust and scratches!

Will PSE 10 give us 16bit editing with the necessary tools? No need to upgrade if it doesn't
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PECourtejoie, Champion

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Kenneth and Kelly, outlining which tools are necessary to YOUR workflow might be useful for the Engineers to prioritise their time and efforts.

Even Photoshop does not have all filters available in 16bits, and it is the same issue. It takes time to port filters/tools to 16bits, and some would not bring any advantage, so listing the tools needed and the reason/workflow is a big plus to get that support added.
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Kelly Dazet

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Understood. I bring most images into ACR and make most adjustments there to either my Camera RAW files and my RAW scanned files. With my scans, I and sometimes DSLR files I need to remove dust and scratches. I haven't found any tools that work in 16bit.

Overall, any image being prepared for viewing on a display, it doesn't matter to me if it is 8 bit. But it does for prints or any serious editing. I haven't found any tools that I need outside ACR that work in 16 bit. I ask you what tools do work? I won't buy any new version of PSE unless this is fixed and the full version is out of the question -- too much money for a nonprofessional!
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Anthony Way

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I would like to be able to correct or enhance the color in my 16-bit color scans of my old slides which I am archiving as TIFF files. The "auto" edits are usually sufficient but sometimes the color correction filters are needed.
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Kelly Dazet

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Anthony,

If I understand correctly what you want to do, you can do that in the PSE editor using ACR (Adobe Camera Raw). To do this open the editor (can't do this from the organizer) Open the photo using File -- Open As, browse to your where your file is located and in the Open AS drop down box and select Camera Raw (tif.....etc) as the file type.

This will open your 16 bit tiff in ACR and you will have some nice controls in there for adjusting your color and levels. The problem is I like to remove dust and scratches first and you can't do that in ACR or the editor with out first converting to 8 bit.

Well, I have in the meantime decided that Adobe will probably never accommodate film users, at least not in Elements and that this work can best be done in Dedicated scanning software. I have purchased Silverfast Archive Suite with IT8 targets, including the Kodachrome target as I have literately thousands of Kodachromes. This works very nicely to scan them without the typical blue cast. I scan as 16bit HDR (raw) tiffs and then open them in HDR and use SRD to to remove dust and scratches and make any necessary adjustments. After that I can import the edited files into the PSE organizer for tagging and organizing and any PS type editing not included in Silverfast HDR. SF is however a complicated program and the learning curve is very steep!

Regards,

Kelly
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Lawrence Walton

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First of all, all of my images are 16 bit .tiff or .nef and was highly disappointed when I opened one in editor Photoshop Elements 9 and was not able to do the first thing I tried, add a layer. There was no feedback and it was only when I decided to try another editing action, the heal tool that I was prompted that I had to convert to 8 bit. I am happy that Photoshop 9 was able to DOWNGRADE my image into something editable. I only wish that this failing was more evident prior to purchase. I Just upgraded from 6 to 9 because of 6's choking on .NEF files and assumed (my bad) that this would include making high quality images from my camera editable. So now reading the posts above I learn that even Photoshop is limited in editing 16 bit images. We all just want the best images possible so in trying to match camera, software, and printer more clarity and honesty about limitations would be helpful.
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Dan Smith

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Kate Ryan

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Just purchased PSE10 an upgrade from PSE8. Can bring an image from LR3 into PSE10 as a 16 bit mode image?
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Kate Ryan

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Just purchased PSE10 an upgrade from PSE8. Can I bring an image from LR3 into PSE10 as a 16 bit mode image?
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Yes, but remember that Photoshop Elements doesn't have full support for 16-bit images once they have been brought in from Lightroom.
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Kate Ryan

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I'm still a novice at all these programs. I thought that PSE8 did suport 16 bit images brought in from LR. Am I wrong?
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Brett N, Official Rep

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PSE8 and PSE10 have the same support for 16-bit images. So yes, you can bring 16-bit images into Photoshop Elements, but once they are there, there is limited support, meaning some of your tools will not work, such as some filters and layers.
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William Manning

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and that includes Multifile Processing to convert RAW to JPG, and resize for web upload
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Kate Ryan

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Thanks Brett, however, I am still having problems. When I right click on my image in LR, the image will not load into PSE10. Your prompt response will be appreciated as I am extremely frustrated and disappointed in this program. I did NOT have this problem when I was loading images from LR into PSE8.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Are you working with Lightroom 4 by chance?
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Kate Ryan

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No. LR3. Here's a link from Adobe.com related to my problem. Barbara B mentions something about the editor being pointed in the right direction. Seems so odd to me that LR3 loaded fine when I was working with PSE8. It's late here so I won't be able to try what she suggests until tomorrow at the earliest. Any additional help is appreciated.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/907148
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Brett N, Official Rep

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The link you provide is about choosing the wrong application file when you setup Photoshop Elements 10 as the external editor for any application (Lightroom, iPhoto, whatever). The file/folder structure was changed in version 10. The problem is most people select the application file that launches the Welcome Screen, not the application file that launches the Editor. So what happens is you are sending you image from Lightroom to the Welcome Screen, this does not then pass the image on to the Editor when you click the Edit button.

This has nothing to do with 16-bit support.
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Lenpot

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I got the image through the raw processing now the editor has bloced the creation of layers. If it's not possible to edit it why have it? Can anyone help?

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Why can't I create a layer when working with a 16 bit raw image? (PSE 10).
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Kelly Dazet

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If you have a previous version of PS Elements, there is probably no reason to upgrade to PSE 10 or future editions unless Adobe adds 16 bit suppost -- other than possible getting the latest version of Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) -- which of course does support 16 bit channel files. Once you leave ACR, there is pretty much 0 support of 16 bit files. So in my case at this point PSE 9 may be my last copy of PSE. Maybe, other than upgrading to PS CS5, which in my opinion may not make sense $-wise for non-professionals, perhaps Lightroom makes more sense, especially with the price reductions on LR4. You can add functionality to LR with plugins and it allows pretty much most adjustments you may need to do with digital camera files.
This is really a shame, because in every other way, PSE is all the editing software most enthusiasts need.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Actually Kelly, I know of many who use Photoshop Elements and Lightroom together. They ditch the Elements Organizer in favor of Lightroom's Library module. They do the bulk of their editing in Lightroom's Develop module, and then do the pixel level edits in Photoshop Elements.
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Kelly Dazet

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Actually I kind of like the PSE organizer! I haven't had LR3 very long and am still learning all the nuances. Its actually a good workflow LR and PSE, it would just be nice to have in all in one program. For my scanning I use SilverFast Archive Suite (SF HDR is my "develop module" for my scans, and then on to PSE. Sometimes I like to open my 48bit/ch tiffs in ACR or LR because there are some unique tools in there that I like and they work nicely.

btw, there will be no upgrade path to LR4 for me because of no support for Win XP pro. So that upgrade will have to wait a year or more for me to build a new computer and upgrade (assume it will be Win 8 by then).

Man this is an expensive hobby! Fun, but expensive. Digital is wonderful, convenient, fast, flexible, and immediate, but no one will ever convince me that it is less expensive and less time consuming, than it was for me in the good old days of Kodachrome Tri-x, and Velvia, even with film and processing costs! :-)

Kelly
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Kate Ryan

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Kelly! I'm chuckling at my end here. I'm no where near the level of competence that you are - but I can relate to your comment about expensive hobby!!!! I'm also blown away with the time consuming aspect of it all!!!! I thought my skiing and golfing habits sucked up time and money. They pal in comparison! BUT since I love the creative aspect of this all, I can't help myself. LOL. I'm addicted, I admit.
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Kelly Dazet

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Kate,

Thanks! I don't really feel very competent with this stuff. And I really wonder how the average Joe can do this stuff at all. In that regard the simpler "good old day" were better for the average snap shooter. All they had to do was take their film to the corner drug store for processing and prints. The most complicated thing they had to do was put those prints in a photo album (and hopefully label them with names, places and time -- no GPS).

LOL, I know about the skiing and golfing expense. Skiing in Utah has gotten so expensive and having a bad knee, I've had to give it up. That's OK, I need the time and money for my photography "habit". And I guess you could say that's a good thing for Adobe! :-) A good friend spends all his time and money on golf! I'm not even going to go there! :-)

Kelly
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Geoff Chalcraft

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Kelly's comments about PSE10 are absolutely spot-on! I'm still a PSE6 user because there really hasn't been much new that's of use to me - and, from PSE9 onwards, I can't even run a trial without getting a new computer! Don't get me wrong..... PSE6 has been excellent for me - but it's about time I was editing in 16-bit. Some of the early "official" replies on this thread seem to say - "Hey, if you want 16-bit, pay the big bucks for CS5 or 6, like professionals!". Completely missing the point that Kelly made.......... "....in every other way, PSE is all the editing software most enthusiasts need." Exactly - we want to make the best of our images, maybe for photo clubs, home decoration, selling the odd one at craft fairs etc - we can't claim the purchase as 'expenses'. Maybe Adobe needs a dig from the printer makers - Epson, Canon, HP etc - because they try to sell us quality printers (like 16" wide or more) with expensive ink..... they don't say "really, to get the best results from this printer, you need at least CS5".
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Lenpot

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Thank you for the update. I agree. This will be my last version of Elements even though I truly like the program. Hopefully, they will add 16 bit support. It's a shame to have ability to shoot but not to edit.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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There is 16-bit support within Photoshop Elements. The topic at hand is a request for MORE support. You do have the ability to edit 16-bit images, just not a full set of tools will work.
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Dan Smith

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Elements users will probably have to wait a couple more years till gimp gets full 16 bits/channel support, then users won't need elements anymore.
(even if that ever happened i wouldn't stop using photoshop elements)
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Kelly Dazet

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Thanks Brett, your comments are appreciated. Which tools work? Every tool I'm tried so far require me to covert the file to 8 bit.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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With 16-bit in PSE, we are mostly working with tools that modify the entire image at once. This includes Enhancements and Filters. But, just as in the pro Photoshop, not all Filters work in 16-bit mode.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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What sort of final output is everybody sending images from Photoshop Elements to?
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Kelly Dazet

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For print to Epson R1900 and for web and sharing.
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Geoff Chalcraft

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Print - to Epson Pro4000, plus all the usual online places.
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Kate Ryan

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Web and print.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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What sort of printing? At home or sent to a service? If home, what type of printer (laser, inkjet, etc)?
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Kate Ryan

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I've only printed my images once - with a professional digital service. I do have a very low end Epson (don't recall the model #) that was given to me for free. The quality of output is awful so I don't use it. I'm still learning things here - but will say that the digital service did a nice job - at least in my opinion and through my somewhat untrained eye.
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Kate Ryan

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Oh..the Epson is inkjet. Sorry.
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Lawrence Walton

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What is upsetting to me is that all of this information has to be "discovered" after a significant out lay of cash the green stuff in either 8 bit or 16 bit.
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Kate Ryan

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Agree with you Lawrence. I read somewhere in one of these many threads that I've been looking at that it would be great for Photoshop to have a product that is somewhere between what is offered in the PSE line - and of course the very high-end, professional product in PS CS5. There are us non-professionals who are very strong enthusiasts. My two cents. Anyway, I'll learn what I can and do what is necessary in PSE10, but honestly, I wish it was a bit easier.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Lawrence: That is why we offer a free 30-day trial, so you can find out if the product meets your needs before shelling out cash.

Kate: Lightroom is considered the middle ground between PSE and PS, aimed at photographers (you can't do graphic work in it).
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Kelly Dazet

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Brett,

Would it be possible for Adobe to publish what tools are available in 16bit? You know when you pick the PSE box up in store it lists all the wonderful things you can do with it and has a chart with checked boxes showing whats new compared with previous versions. This is also published online. Why can't we have a similar chart showing what is available in 16 bit in PSE so that we know up front what editing we can do in 16 bit. Why do we have to find out through trial and error? To me it seems a little deceptive on Adobe's part, just get our dollars. Why should we have to waste our time with the trial version. Just tell us up front PSE has ......, LR has....., PS CS5 has .....! Is that too much to asK? Can you feed this back to your employer? Really appreciate your listening to us and responding, but it would be nice to know that others in Adobe are listening and might respond!

Kelly
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Brett N, Official Rep

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If we were to publish a list of every feature within the application and place a check mark only next to the ones that were 16-bit compatible, that would be quite a large book. Even if we just list all of the Menu items that work with 16-bit, that would still be a long list that would be difficult to read.
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Geoff Chalcraft

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Hmmmm but it could also be misrepresentation of the product if you don't say what it CAN'T do! So..... my next logical step would be PSE11 - nothing in PSE 7 to PSE10 has really made a difference to me, (and PSE9 onwards requires me to get much more power on the computer) so I'm still on PSE6. If PSE11 comes out without being able to use layers on 16-bit images (or most filters).... I'm jumping ship to PaintShopPro Photo (which, apparently, does).
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Perhaps this little video may help everyone here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skC_GK...
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Kelly Dazet

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Thanks Brett,

That's a very interesting video! I'll have to watch some of his other tutorials

Kelly
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Dan Smith

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Another little something that might be of use.

http://forums.adobe.com/thread/975085...
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Roger Wellman

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Easy to rectify... G.I.M.P. is a open source image manipulation program and works in 8, 16, and 32 bit modes. Many features are as strong as strong or stronger than CS6... Photoshop employes 60 programers (not that many) and simply do not have the time or inclanation to work on Elements 10 much. Open Source has a virtual army of programers working around the world and around the clock... check out the latest version 2.8 on their web site...

Roger
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Geoff Chalcraft

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As a big fan of Open Office, I'll give the latest GIMP another go....... even though, after several years of PS and PSE, it's been a complete puzzle to me so far!
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doug roll

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I am so bummed. Downloaded PSE 11, opened up a TIF file and my very first operation was denied due to a lack of 16 bit support - trying to heal a small area.

I would like to make a suggestion to Adobe. Instead of treating PSE as a "non-professional" stripped version of Photoshop, treat PSE as a smaller, professional version of PS. Reduce the features, maybe increase its retail price a bit, but the features that are kept should have equivalent quality and support. I suspect that this approach will make your developers more efficient since less time would be spent trying to figure out how to "water down" your technology for the masses.

Sadly the product will be uninstalled immediately and replaced with either Corel or Gimp.
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Kelly Dazet

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Doug,

You need to open your tiff file in ACR. Open it in the editor as a camera raw file. However, I'm using version 9 and there are no healing tools there. Don't know about PSE 11 but I doubt it. You can edit your level, reduce noise apply sharpening etc. in ACR, but then you may do other editing only after converting to 8bit.

Really for the serious photo editor, PSE is not adequate other that using it in conjunction with LightRoom.

The only reason I could possibly see for upgrading from a previous version of PSE is to get the latest edition of ACR, which I believe as of now is 7.2.

Regards,

Kelly
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doug roll

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Hi Kelly,

Thank you for taking the time to write back.

I use Lightroom and was hoping to use PSE for those few times that I needed freehand healing tools and true cloning tools which LR lacks. Some flexibility with masks and layers is helpful as well.

There are no healing tools in ACR in conjunction with PSE 11.

I remain disappointed, but still hopeful given the market place. I am currently taking Corel PSP for a spin.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, it is appreciated.

doug
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Kelly Dazet

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Hi Doug,

It would be nice if the Adobe engineers would read and respond to this issue and the suggestions that you and others make about 16bit editing in PSE. But they don't and probably won't! We should buy PS CS 6 you know! :-) The problem for me is, I'm only an enthusiast, not a professional and don't have the budget for CS6. And I suspect that is true of many of us, who are not beginners (which probably is more the PSE target user) nor professional (the target user for CS6). Something in between would be nice. I just need tools to prepare, mainly scanned 48bit color or 16 bit B&W negatives and slides for printing. I'm currently using a combination of Silverfast Archive Suite and PSE 9.

Regards,

Kelly
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doug roll

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Hi Kelly,

Agreed on all of your points. Have you looked at LR 4.1, btw? It's 16 bit and the reduced retail price is much more in line with the market. I am guessing that your edits are not extensive in which case LR may or may not be the tool.

doug
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Kelly Dazet

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Hi Doug,

I have LR-3 but am still learning with it. Kind of a slow transition for me. Can't upgrade to LR-4 because I'm still running Win XP 32bit and that is not supported by LR-4. When I upgrade my computer and OS , and when I'm comfortable with 3 I'll consider the upgrade. Right now I still shoot more film than digital. If I can ever afford a FF digital I probably will be working more with LR. Presently I'm working more in SF Archive Suite and PSE-9.

Regards,

Kelly
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Anthony Way

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Brett N,
I would very much like to be able to use ALL the editing tools of PSE on 16-bit color TIFF files.
I am a non-professional, long-time multiple-version, user of PSE/PrE (version 10 now). I am scanning 10,000 slides (Nikon Super Cooscan 5000 ED, Nikon Scan 4.0.3) for archival purposes (16-bit color, 4000 ppi, TIFF; 50 slides per 1.5 hrs). Of the first 5000, about 2000 need some editing. I do not have the time nor the need for detailed editing of thousands of files. Adobe Camera Raw is adequate for perhaps half of my slides, but the other 1000 could be substantially improved with PSE's tools (mostly color/lighting correction). If I could afford PS CS6 for $700, I would probably buy SilverFast Archive Suite 8 for $450 instead. I'd even pay a reasonable premium (say $100) for a 16-bit PSE. Since modern cameras are probably going to 16-bit color, I think Adobe should seriously consider making PSE fully 16-bit capable.
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Brett N, Official Rep

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Modern cameras that shoot in a raw format would use 16-bit color, which is why that support is in Photoshop Elements. Older camera and new ones also shoot in JPEG which are always 8-bit regardless of source.

Also, PSE already retails for $100. Are you saying you would pay an additional $100 for a more advanced PSE? That sounds like you are saying you would want to purchase Lightroom then (which retails for less than that and has full 16-bit support for much of the editing you are looking for).
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Anthony Way

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OK, I'll take another look at Lightroom. Thanks for the feedback
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doug roll

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Brett, et al,

For my part I appreciate your attention and responses to this thread. I work for a software company and understand that no one can wave a magic wand (unfortunate PS pun) and add a feature. So I ask...

Was an internal RFE opened for 16 bit support? If 'no' can one be opened?

If 'yes' what has been the response (near-term roadmap, long-term roadmap or no plans for this).

Honestly, if there are no plans for this feature I would like to know so I can put this topic to bed and properly allocate my $$$.

Any insight to share?

doug
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Bob Saunders

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
PSE 16 Bit Support.


Would you please provide 16 bit support in the next release of PSE so that the majority of us who do not need or can afford CS6 will still be able to properly work with our LR 4.2 RAW edited files in elements?
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Allan Derickson

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This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Elements: It's time for full 16 bit support.

Back when Elements was introduced Photoshop itself had limited support for 16 bit images. Now digital cameras have vastly superior sensors and capabilities. Come on Adobe, isn't it time to give full 16 bit support to Elements?