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4 Messages

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242 Points

Wed, May 16, 2012 10:30 PM

Closed

Photoshop: Curves Adjustment under 32 bit/channel

I like to see curve (adjustment layer) implemented under 32 bit mode. This would make it possible to make my own tone remaping and enable me to see the image naturally while working on it in this mode.
You would need to adjust the tool for linear float ranges.

This conversation has been merged. Please refer the main conversation:

Responses

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

9 years ago

You do understand that 32 bit/channel is floating point, and has infinite positive and negative range?

4 Messages

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242 Points

9 years ago

Hello Chris,
Yes of course. There is float orientated compositing tools out there which have curve editiors that allow the user to scroll and scale the coordinate system view to their taste although practically you rarely would exceed a dynamic range beyond 20 stops.

5 Messages

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122 Points

8 years ago

Mr Cox, we do understand "32 bit/channel is floating point, and has infinite positive and negative range". I suggest you read "The HDRI Handbook 2.0" to understand how curve adjustments works in other applications in 32bit.
Or you may look into another Adobe product, After Effects as curve adjustments have been available there for years now.

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

AE curves don't work on the full range.
We have looked at other products and done some user testing -- and so far there is no good UI (or user understanding) for working with the full HDR range. It's a bit more complicated than most imagine.

5 Messages

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122 Points

AE does work on the full range, or at least work in full range enough to be functional: I just tested it and it retained values over 1.0 after a curve adjustment effect. And "finesse" effect works just as well. It does help to add toe and shoulder to an 32bit image without converting to 8/16bit, so it's definitively better than what we currently have in Photoshop, which is nothing.

2 Messages

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74 Points

Chris, you do understand that the are other apps, like Nuke, that do this sort of thing in a functionally decent manner? Personally, if I were an engineer with Photoshop I'd rather deliver the hack that works - as it does in nuke - rather than maintain the superior attitude that comes from knowing I'm "technically correct". Just sayin'.

As Blochi mentions below, I can understand that this is a fairly major effort to get going, but honestly the Curve Editor is really overdue for an upgrade. I think it hasn't changed since what, v3 or so...

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

Please read the previous responses. Again: we have looked at the UI from other apps that attempt to do this.

2 Messages

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74 Points

...and doing nothing was seen as a more viable option than to engineer something that works? What are you waiting for?

4 Messages

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100 Points

I'm glad you did, thank you. So that means you have seen how a flexible curve interface is constructed and have some fresh ideas how to make it even better? I'm excited.

4 Messages

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100 Points

Chris, you say:
"so far there is no good UI ... for working with the full HDR range."

I don't necessarily agree, but if that are your findings then just giving up doesn't sound like the appropriate reaction. It sounds like a perfect opportunity to innovate. Steve Jobs started a talk the same way: "We looked at all the MP3 players out there, and none had a an intuitive interface." Instead of dropping the subject, he made the iPod.

5 Messages

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122 Points

We did read the previous responses, for years now. And we know you looked into "UI from other apps that attempt to do this": what we are appalled from is that choosing to leave the adjustment curve only available in 8/16bit is the only course you think is possible, which is not as we would be perfectly happy to have it implemented the way it's *already* done in After Effects, regardless if it is imperfect or not. We've been using AE curve adjustment for years now as a non destructive workflow to preview a tone mapping while staying in 32bit: I wish we weren't forced to export an image from photoshop just to perform this simple task, a very simple for AE but apparently insurmountable for PS.

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

Who says I've given up? You're jumping to bad conclusions.

5 Messages

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122 Points

So far (since CS2 to be precise) is the only conclusion we can get from your answers... Tell us something different please.

4 Messages

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100 Points

Oh, well, I apologize for jumping the conclusions. Must have misread your post.

Under this new light I'm very glad that you looked at all the other 32-bit curve implementations and decided to do it even better. Fusion's bezier handles are sometimes hard to grab, and having the horizontal axis displayed in Log space would be much more intuitive as well as show a more comprehensible histogram. And you probably also found out that not only the graph display needs to be zoomable, but the user should be able to scale all the curve adjustments to better cope with unexpected luminance peaks.

I'm very excited to see the curve interface you come up with.

18 Messages

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278 Points

Can I ask what the point of a 32 bit mode is if most of the software doesn't work with it? Is it Adobe policy to only half do everything it starts?

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

That doesn't relate to this topic, and makes very little sense.

18 Messages

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278 Points

I was expanding on a topic about a feature missing from 32 bit mode, I don't see that the topic shouldn't be generalised.

And to ask why half the feature set is missing makes perfect sense to almost everybody. Except you who regularly, it seems, fails to see the sense in anything sensible.

18 Messages

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278 Points

I was expanding on a topic about a feature missing from 32 bit mode, I don't see that the topic shouldn't be generalised.

And to ask why half the feature set is missing makes perfect sense to almost everybody. Except you who regularly, it seems, fails to see the sense in anything sensible.

5 Messages

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122 Points

I do see too that the abandoned development of the rest of tools in 32bit is closely related to this topic... When talking to my collegue is the main reason there is still resistance tobwork in 32bit. Mr. Cox are you suggesting to open a new thread for these instead to discuss it in here? Shall we open an individual thread for each of the old tools like dodge, burn, magic wand, color range, plus the Reduce Noise filter and the Color Balance adjustment?

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

Yes, this topic is about something specific. To keep the discussion on track (much less to track interest), we need to stick to a single topic.

But please realize that many of those tools rely on math that CANNOT work in 32 bit/channel. If you have a specific need for something to work in 32 bit/channel - tell us what that need is, and we'll see if we can make the function work, or explain why it cannot be made to work.

18 Messages

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278 Points

Black and White?

And curves, of course.

4 Messages

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100 Points

8 years ago

Although the numerical range in 32-bit is close to infinity, the data is not.

There are curve interfaces that allow manipulating this data with great success. Don't look at After Effects, rather look at Fusion or Nuke.

What makes these curve interfaces succeed are:

- the window can be expanded to fill more screen area. I can go fullscreen for fine tuning
- you can zoom out of the graph to show value ranges beyond 1
- you can set curve points anywhere, including the super-bright areas beyond 1
- you can use bezier handles to adjust the outgoing slope, after the last keyframe. Bezier handles are also very useful to adjust the slope elsewhere on the curve.
- to identify and prevent unwanted crossing of the RGB channels it is necessary to see RGB curves drawn at the same time.

None of these are currently possible in Photoshop's Curve interface, and so I can see why making curves 32-bit capable would require a lot of engineering effort. But I think these features would also benefit the Curves interface in general.

Christian Bloch

1 Message

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50 Points

8 years ago

Goodness, Mr. Cox. Your arrogance seems to have an "infinite positive ... range." One might have hoped that your experience with discussions about .exr would have changed, if not your thinking, at least your public attitude. You damage not only your personal reputation (among paying customers and a fair number of developers, engineers and scholarly researchers), but that of your employer, a publicly-traded company. I cannot fathom the degree of tolerance your employers and their counsel have for your repeated alienation of your most important customers.

1. When users ask for a feature to be implemented or improved, especially when they ask year after year, release after release, it is incumbent upon the developer to find a way to meet the need if not the mathematical letter of the request.
2. When implementing a feature, it is not necessary that the implementation be utterly perfect in all theoretical and hypothetical situations. It is sufficient that it work reliably in the set of situations in which the requesting users find themselves.
3. Which leads us to the very large proportion of image processing applications that handle floating-point images with some sort of curve tool. Most of these do this adequately, and some very well. Whether you believe this to be the case is irrelevant; it is enough that your product's users, your customers (and the ultimate source of your livelihood) do.
4. As I am not an engineer of your standing or an academic, I won't assert this without qualification. It is however my firm belief that function curves, as mathematical entities, also can have "infinite positive and negative range." In both dimensions. By definition.

I sincerely hope that it takes less time for this conversation thread to escalate to the executive level, and the point of seeing actual results in the software, than the .exr thread did.

Ed Manning

4 Messages

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242 Points

8 years ago

I think there is actually a good point made that improving the curve editor in the described ways would not only benefit the 32 bit mode but also provide more precision, control and comfort when working in integer bit modes.

And then the only difference would be that you would need to be able to expand the scale beyond 1, in 32 bit mode.

I know that there is concern that implementations of this sort are too technical for the average user. But I think it would be fair to assume that people who use the 32 bit mode have an understanding of why and when they are operate in it and the functions they use to do so.

The additions Christian describes would still be very intuitive and by default you could leave the editor the same in size and curve type to start with, so users wouldn't be confused by the new functionality.

2 Messages

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74 Points

4 years ago

Please implement a curve interface in 32 bit mode. I would also love to see the Lumetri Color interface from Premiere/After Effects implemented into Photoshop for full compatibility accross the board. That would allow me to apply the same colorcorrections to images in Photoshop as I have in used in After effects. After effects is not very good at handling high resolution images and crashes when I import an image that is 25000 x 14000 in 32 bit. Now I have to try to recreate the comp in Photoshop and try to mimic the same color corrections, but it isn't easy, and Photoshop doesn't even allow me to use curves in 32 bit mode.

Champion

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887 Messages

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19.2K Points

I'm wondering how the AE teams handles the issues raised by Chris...