5 Messages
•
710 Points
Fri, Jan 27, 2012 4:42 AM
71
Lightroom/Camera Raw: Ability to invert negative scans to positives (color and black-and-white)
I would dearly like to see the Lightroom 4 Beta team implement an additional feature in the final release. That feature would be the ability to take a camera+macro lens image of a B&W negative -- essentially a camera-based scan of a negative -- and invert the negative image to a positive image at the beginning of the development process in such a way that the resulting sliders in the LR4 Develop Module would not operate in reverse. As I understand it, this capability exists in Photoshop, but I don't own Photoshop. I do own Photoshop Elements 9, but that program only supports an 8-bit workflow, not 16-bits per channel, and round-tripping between LR & PSE9 requires the reimportation of a TIFF file that is more than twice the size of my NEF RAW files. Since this programming wizardry already exists in Photoshop, I would think that it would be a relatively simple matter to transfer and adapt that code for LR4 -- but then, I'm not a programmer, so what do I know...
I've been digitizing 40-year-old Kodachrome slides from my Peace Corps days in Africa, using a 55mm Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens, coupled to a Nikon ES-1 Slide Copy Attachment, and even on a D300s body, I can get truly excellent results. I can't wait to continue that work using the pending 36 megapixel Nikon D800 body with an upgraded f/2.8 macro lens (mine is the old 55mm f/3.5 design). I really, REALLY want to be able to camera-scan my many B&W negatives without having to generate huge intermediate TIFF files.
You can respond to this request by emailing me, Jeff Kennedy Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to review and consider my request. I LOVE Lightroom 3, and from what I've seen, I'm going to love LR4 even more. I REALLY appreciate the effort that Adobe takes to solicit input from the photographic user community.
BTW, if the feature I request *can't* be implemented right away, could the LR support team provide detailed, interim instructions as to how to use the "backwards" sliders, and in what sequence? That would be very much appreciated. I'm sure many older LR users have considerable analog image collections that they would like to digitize, and doing so in-camera is both 1) of surprisingly high quality, 2) MUCH faster than using flatbed scanners and 3) of much higher quality and resolution than flatbed scan and MUCH cheaper than professional drum scans.
I've been digitizing 40-year-old Kodachrome slides from my Peace Corps days in Africa, using a 55mm Micro-Nikkor (macro) lens, coupled to a Nikon ES-1 Slide Copy Attachment, and even on a D300s body, I can get truly excellent results. I can't wait to continue that work using the pending 36 megapixel Nikon D800 body with an upgraded f/2.8 macro lens (mine is the old 55mm f/3.5 design). I really, REALLY want to be able to camera-scan my many B&W negatives without having to generate huge intermediate TIFF files.
You can respond to this request by emailing me, Jeff Kennedy Thanks, in advance, for taking the time to review and consider my request. I LOVE Lightroom 3, and from what I've seen, I'm going to love LR4 even more. I REALLY appreciate the effort that Adobe takes to solicit input from the photographic user community.
BTW, if the feature I request *can't* be implemented right away, could the LR support team provide detailed, interim instructions as to how to use the "backwards" sliders, and in what sequence? That would be very much appreciated. I'm sure many older LR users have considerable analog image collections that they would like to digitize, and doing so in-camera is both 1) of surprisingly high quality, 2) MUCH faster than using flatbed scanners and 3) of much higher quality and resolution than flatbed scan and MUCH cheaper than professional drum scans.
Ideas
•
Updated
2 months ago
798
64
71
Helpful Widget
How can we improve?
Tags
lightroom 4 beta
bw negative scan
raw file tone curve inversion
interim instruction request
feature request
negative to positive inversion
Responses
benjamin_wong_3542637
12 Messages
•
260 Points
9 years ago
0
0
john_verne
Champion
•
704 Messages
•
8.5K Points
9 years ago
You would have to cook up a preset for every process you want, of course.
See here (though there are others, if your web-fu is good):
http://www.lightroomforums.net/archiv...
http://photography-rod.blogspot.com/2...
Personally, I've found that the scanning software I use with the process/negative specific plugins makes perfectly good raw positives.
1
lee_jay_fingersh
946 Messages
•
13.8K Points
9 years ago
0
0
jeff_kennedy_3542707
5 Messages
•
710 Points
9 years ago
Everyone seems to be making this **way** too complicated. Look, at its heart, every digital image file is a matrix of rows and columns representing the illuminance values (e.g., 0 to 255 for an 8-bit file) for each pixel in the sensor (a physical matrix array of sencels). In a color file there are, in essence, three matrices, one each for R, G and B values. And yes, I know that there's a Bayer array of sub-sencels that makes it a bit more complex, but I'm simplifying here. That level of complexity doesn't change the basic concept.
In a B&W image, regardless of whether it's a negative or a positive image, the three matrices of R,G and B values are combined into a single set of gray-scale values using a weighting algorithm. (I'm simplifying here. NIK SilverEffex Pro allows the user to select how each R, G and B channel is weighted and combined to produce the final gray-scale matrix, but we don't need to concern ourselves with those details, here.)
In essence, to convert a B&W negative image to a positive image one merely needs to subtract each matrix value from 255 (assuming an 8-bit file for this discussion). Zero values become 255, values of 255 become zero, and so-on in a linear fashion for in-between values. It's simple, basic matrix math. I do mean "simple," and I do mean "basic." The only complexity may be the different formats that proprietary RAW formats use to store the matrices, but these differences are certainly well-known, otherwise current development adjustments could not be done. This is not rocket science.
Once that simple matrix subtraction process is done, one need only decide whether to save the result as a virtual copy, or as an overwrite of the original file (in appropriate RAW format, without changing other RAW data, of course). The user could select which option they prefer via simple check boxes. The user then proceeds to use the regular development sliders **in normal fashion** on the virtual copy or the overwritten file from there on out. Problem solved....
Adobe, please don't force your users to tie themselves in knots with kludgy solutions, when a simple and elegant solution clearly exists, as it does in Photoshop. The basic problem is that you (Adobe) need to decide that this functionality is a high enough priority to devote limited programmer resources to its solution. That's where feedback from the user community plays an important role. If you're a user who really wants this functionality, then you need to let Adobe know that you want it. It's that simple.
Just FYI, I have a BS in Physics (UC Davis, 1969) and I'm all-but-dissertation for a Ph.D. in vegetation ecology (also UC Davis), where I worked extensively with matrices of species=by-plot and environmental variables-by-plot data. I also managed projects to produce digital vegetation maps using low-elevation (airplane platform) digital imagery. I am familiar with matrix mathematics/algebra in the analysis of both types of data matrices.
3
walker_blackwell
7 Messages
•
230 Points
8 years ago
I would like to see an Invert button, RGB/LaB curves, RGB Levels, and Linear raw editing in Lightroom. I know I know. It's not the way Lightroom works; Lightroom is for raw cameras, etc,etc.
BUT!
1. Nobody is making scanners anymore.
2. There are billions of pieces of film that still need to be scanned.
3. 21 megapixels (and up) + a 100mm prime macro lens do a handy-dandy job of copying 35mm film at 4000dpi resolution. (Hass. just came out with a 200mpx camera. It is drum scanner like.)
So . . . . soon (like in 4 or 5 years) this will be the way pros (and LOC, and a handful of major archives) scan film. And the software that will support those raw files? Right now it's Bibble 5. Lightroom doesn't have acceptable chromatic control.
If Lightroom could interpret a RAW file in a Linear fashion (ie: not messing with L and saturation values but keeping them in line), and give us RGB curves and levels, we could very quickly build out neg profiles based on published Gamma curves for various films types. This would quickly make LR the defacto input workflow for both camera scanning and raw tiff files from every scanner out there. It already works perfectly for BW film. What about color negs?
The raw controls that LR has, already, would make it superior to all other scan invert apps. Stacking Recovery or Fill control on top of a perfectly inverted raw color negative scan would be very sweet indeed.
This would also have the effect of making Lightroom the main starting point for any photographic workflow. It would quickly populate through every fine art photo department in the country (yes, cneg film is still a part of the curriculum). A vast new generation of students would be introduced to Lightroom as a required software just like Photoshop. Right now ACR is free. Why pay for Lightroom?
The "raw scan" competition is Bibble5, Silverfast, and Flexcolor. All 3 of these applications don't interact with Photoshop in any meaningful way and Bibble is the only one capable of interpreting raw camera scans.
My two cents,
Walker Blackwell
This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled
Lightroom and Negatives.
0
jeff_kennedy_3542707
5 Messages
•
710 Points
8 years ago
0
0
tim_reeves_7361622
6 Messages
•
130 Points
5 years ago
There's still hundreds of articles talking about work arounds and expensive third party colour profiles.
Come on Adobe, there's literally no reason to not implement this feature.
1
0
tim_reeves_7361622
6 Messages
•
130 Points
5 years ago
Can we get an invert button in lightroom?
There are countless people using lightroom to digitise film negatives, and with the meteoric rise of DSLR scanning rigs this number of people is only set to rise.
Can we PLEASE get an "invert" button that allows all the other features such as white balance, fill lights, etc to work NORMALLY, the often given answer of "Just invert your tone curve" is wholly insufficient due to how it interacts with lightrooms other tools.
Alternatively can we allow colour profiles to be applied concurrently so we can use one "layer" to un-invert and another "layer" to do corrections from there. Some sort of stacked topography that works in the library is desperately needed to fix the mess from exporting to and from between PS and LR. By incorporating a stacked, layered work flow of physical and non physical (PS& LR) edits it would add to the usability of the adobe suite greatly.
Alternatively, just an invert button, it's not a tricky job!
0
0
rick_schuster
6 Messages
•
110 Points
5 years ago
0
0
wayne_gisel
1 Message
•
60 Points
5 years ago
1
0
thomas_kaae_colding
1 Message
•
60 Points
5 years ago
Cheers
0
0
rick_schuster
6 Messages
•
110 Points
5 years ago
0
0
John_R_Ellis
Champion
•
5.5K Messages
•
97.6K Points
5 years ago
To invert a batch of photos, select all of them in the Library. Then from the Quick Develop menu, select the develop preset. Then right click the images and do Export > your export preset . The inverted images will be stacked on top of the originals.
Perhaps not as convenient as having an option in Develop, but it gets the job done with just a few clicks.
2
joe_picard
3 Messages
•
100 Points
5 years ago
I'd love to have an invert or negative check box in LR. This would be very helpful for working with scanned B&W film as DNG. While your at it if there was a color negative tool for inverting colors and removing color cast from scanned color negative film as DNG you'd make even more friends!
0
0
fredrik_persson_4647308
4 Messages
•
110 Points
5 years ago
It would be great with an "Invert"-button/command in Camera Raw, when working with reproducing negatives, (shot by camera instead of scanned) otherwise you have to do more of the correction/editing in Photoshop.
0
0