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7 Messages

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250 Points

Tue, May 24, 2011 9:12 PM

Not planned

5

Lightroom: support for un-maximized PSDs

I saw a post in 2009 about this, but nothing since. Lightroom NEEDS to support Unmaximized PSDs in some form or another. Right now they are invisible to Lightroom!

A multilayered photo file can be 200MB Un-Maximized, yet it's only 89 MB Maximized.

I'd even settle for saving a small composite image in the PSD that Lightroom can use.

As the guy said in 2009 - It's PHOTOSHOP LIGHTROOM, how can Lightroom completely ignore files native to Photoshop?

Responses

3 Messages

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80 Points

9 years ago

So why can't Lightroom show the image and say "no Lightroom editing". At the moment it completely ignores the file (after saying it can't read it)! Totally unacceptable.

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

For one (and I suspect many other reasons), it would have to have support for layers, their opacity, blend modes and all the stuff in Photoshop to show you this data. Huge engineering when a solution exists that not only allows you to see the compounded effect of the layers, it allows tons of other applications to do so as well (the rendered embedded TIFF data).

Bottom line is, you have to use the compatibility option, it aint going to change anytime soon if at all.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

3 Messages

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80 Points

9 years ago

The engineering's already done - just copy it from Bridge! Do you speak for Adobe on "it ain't gonna change"?

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

Of course, command C, command P, why didn’t I think of that.

Hopefully that simple code will do the job of showing you the layers and even let you edit them too. You’re a genius!

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

946 Messages

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13.8K Points

"The engineering's already done - just copy it from Bridge! Do you speak for Adobe on "it ain't gonna change"? "

They aren't even written in the same language.

Look, here's why I think this is unlikely to be implemented. First, it's been like this since version 1 with very little complaining. Second, there are two very simple and straight-forward workarounds already (maximize and tiff). Finally, take a look at this thread. It's been around for a couple of months and it has three votes for it. Look at the "popular" page. The last one on the first page has 19 votes. This indicates to me that not a lot of people care about this feature request, likely because the workaround is so straightforward, especially now with gigabytes of hard drive storage down to 5 cents a piece.

Lightroom makes processing large numbers of images at least an order of magnitude more efficient than using PS for the same thing. Given its relatively low cost (compared to CS) and that very large return on that investment, many photographers have adopted it for handling large numbers of images. Many of us, myself included, don't even own PS (I have Elements for those very few images that I can't deal with entirely in Lightroom). For those very few images, I save them in TIFF. For those legacy images, I saved them with maximize on. No big deal and they are all editable in Lightroom.

3 Messages

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86 Points

9 years ago

Mike, I'm still on your (our) side here. Given that LR can't do anything with layered files, I suppose it seems logical to the propeller heads at Adobe to have it (nearly) ignore PSDs altogether. In fact, I read recently that initially there was not going to be any support in LR for PSDs at all. I guess something is better than nothing, but not by much.

So, being a LR newb, I'm trying to figure out how to modify my workflow to take advantage of LR's strengths but, in the meantime, I'm still not sold on the idea of converting all my legacy PSDs to tiffs just to make LR happy. For that matter, I'm not yet really sold on LR.

The jury is still out.

27 Messages

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440 Points

7 years ago

It just seems silly to me that one Adobe product cannot read another Dobe product's files properly. The requirement for maximized compatibility seems like LR is crippled in its ability to PSD's to me. Adobe has the code that reads a normal PSD and it should be fairly trivial to put that code into LR.

223 Messages

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3.5K Points

7 years ago

Also, isn't it called PHOTOSHOP LIGHTROOM?

Seems all the more stupid when LR cannot properly read PSD.

Champion

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1.4K Messages

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24.5K Points

7 years ago

Lightroom can read a properly saved PSD.

Why are you using PSD when a Tiff can handle it all without special hoops?

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/for...

27 Messages

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440 Points

First of all, no it cannot. It needs "maximized compatibility", which seems silly to need for another up-to-date Adobe product. Such a function seems more like something for legacy applications, like older versions of Photoshop.

Why not TIFF: because when using PSD, exporting to TIFF is yet another file to manage. And compared to PSD, TIFF is "lossy" becasue it cannot contain all the things a PSD can (so not lossy pixels, but still lossy as in loss of information).

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

Not choosing "Maximize compatibility" means not properly saved, and Photoshop's dialog box does provide a very clear indication of the likely results in other apps.

It's "fairly trivial" to read the embedded preview which "Maximize compatibility" adds to the PSD, and that's what LR and other 3rd party apps use. It's not so trivial to include Photoshop's rendering engine and can't be a high priority to cater for folk who have deliberately chosen a suboptimal method of saving files.

Your best bet is to write an action to convert PSDs to layered TIFs. TIF is the equivalent of PSD - with the minor exception of not supporting duotone mode images.

40 Messages

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496 Points

Besides the hassle of knowing which file is in Layers and which is flat. If it has layers I use PSD, if its flat I use TIF.

27 Messages

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440 Points

On top of that, even if TIFF supports layers (properly), most applicaties cannot read them. So might as well have PSD for full functionality, rather than a crippled version in TIFF.

Champion

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1.4K Messages

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24.5K Points

In two years, this topic has received 3 votes. That probably tells Adobe they don't need to waste the engineering time to reverse engineer the PS engine into Lightroom just to satisfy a few.

Some additional research in to Tiff vs. PSD on your parts, is probably in order. The functionality you perceive you are losing is so miniscule that the benefits of Tiff dwarf them by comparison. I have never met anyone who wished they hadn't converted over to TIFF but I have met plenty who lament having stayed (or converted) to PSD.

27 Messages

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440 Points

I don't care about votes. A long discussion says a lot more. I think Adobe is intelligent enough to disguish between what's important and what's popular.

More to the point, if TIFF and PSD are so similar, then it should be all the more trivial to get PSD working.

Champion

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1.4K Messages

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24.5K Points

Good luck

27 Messages

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440 Points

I don't understand this.
You're wishing me good luck with what exactly?

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

It's foolish to use PSD, end of story. It doesn't provide anything useful as discussed, it's proprietary, it's far less supported on other applications. There's no reason for Adobe to waste engineering time and resources so yes, good luck in getting this requested implemented. I suspect that if you asked most Adobe engineers if they would personally prefer PSD to go away, they would say yes.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

27 Messages

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440 Points

Maybe it's foolish, maybe it's superfluous, maybe it's even obsolete. But certainly it's *being used*. And that's what matters.

On top of that, like I've said a million times, TIFF doesn't work properly in each application that claims to be able to read it. Those programs almost always only read the first/top layer, and don't apply any of the effects that you could do in Photoshop, like adjustment layers. I seriously doubt that any program capable of reading TIFF would go and implement all of this. It's too much work and TIFF is almost never used like that anyway.

All this makes TIFF certainly usable, but it also makes for faux compatibility. Which is useful if your files remain inside the realm of Adobe. Anywhere outside it and they become unreadable and write-only.

Therefor, PSD. At least PSD is unsupported or supported. Never anywhere in between.

And if TIFF is so equivalent to PSD, like (as well) I've said a billion times before: implementing it in Lightroom should be trivial, if it already supports TIFF to its full extend as you so claim (which I seriously doubt - so prove it).

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

>>On top of that, like I've said a million times, TIFF doesn't work roperly in each application that claims to be able to read it. Those programs almost almways only read the first/top layer, and don't apply any of the effects that you could do in Photoshop, like adjustment layers.<<

I don't know that you get it. Layers, in TIFF or PSD are proprietary Adobe data. If you are worried about access to that data in an Adobe app, either will work the same (san's Dutone support). OUTSIDE Adobe app's, TIFF or PSD, the layer proprietary data isn't available. That's why we need a flattened version! Outside Adobe app's, TIFF is vastly more supported than PSD, and both will only provide a flattened version of the proprietary layer data for editing.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

27 Messages

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440 Points

Wrong again. GIMP can read layers. And I'm sure there are other program that can. So now you're claiming Adobe is the only one capable of reading layers at all. This couldn't be further from the truth.

My point was that programs reading TIFF cannot read layers at all, making save-as-TIFF completely nonsense for anything but Photoshop.

If layers are 100% proprietary data, then the argument for TIFF fails again, because a PSD is 100% proprietary by itself. Interoperability can easily be achieved by exporting to PNG, since the file is going to be meant to be read only anyway.

6 Messages

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122 Points

What background do you have in using this software? Anyone heavily in editing as derivatives of TIFs, the last thing anyone wants to do is mistake a layered source file for a flat file.

How are you supposed to distinguish a Flat TIF from a layered TIF????
A little color change if it were wouldn't be enough. it needs a new icon and extension. Is PSD slow? Yes, but it IS the standard of how and what photoshop is based on. Maybe PSB should be the new engine for PSD, and have that transition, but why would you associate TIF with PSD?

And Yes, last time I checked PSD is VERY key for Lightroom users. The reason why there are low votes is that many people don't get active about it. I'm surprised how you're being so COUNTER active. Whats your gain?

Its annoying enough that when you open a file from LR(defaults to a TIF format), you have to resync the folder to see it back in LR if you saved it in PSD, which is 90% of the time. If you wanted to work flat, you really have little reason for it to launch into Photoshop in the first place! Someone has got it screwing back there, and just lazy to fix it.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

The reason for low votes? Why not take it at face value? No votes means not many people are interested in it. And imagine how many votes would be against it - if people were allowed that option.

You're most unlikely to get this to change. Rather than getting upset, create an action to convert the files to TIF, see them appear in Lightroom, and move on.

6 Messages

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122 Points

I'm surprised at your unwillingness and resistance to improve something that doesn't negatively effect anyone else.

This would make managing files very difficult.
I have used Adobe before it was called Photoshop. The only reason in the past 20 years I have come to the forum to voice something is with LR limitations. There have been numerous things we just except and not post about it. LR is now at the point of annoying with the limitations. If Adobe took things at face value, they wouldn't be the application they are today.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

I'm giving you a positive way forward.

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

7 years ago

>>GIMP can read layers.

Photoshop proprietary created layers (with all blend modes supported, Smart Objects etc)?

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

7 years ago

How are you supposed to distinguish a Flat PSD from a layered PSD???? File name seems doable.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

6 Messages

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122 Points

7 years ago

So you suppose I should go through 10TB of image data to rename the ones with layers? The file names as they are are too long. When there are visual instant response ques like icons to distinguish files, you want to sit there and read??? Sounds like you need a good book to check out from your local library using index cards to look up some titles and info.

If the content is the same, and they don't sound like they are, and if there was a CLEAR way visually to distinguish a LAYER vs a FLAT TIF, maybe I would not care of the conversion. But there isn't. It should perhaps be called a CTF(complexTiff)? or something. This way you see it in the extension, you see the icon differnece and thats it.

1.9K Messages

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22.8K Points

7 years ago

>>So you suppose I should go through 10TB of image data to rename the ones with layers?

Yup (which isn't difficult with the right product), but at the very least, you could consider naming conventions in the future as a key to what the data contains and/or use the slew of metadata that's possible to embed into images. But back OT, a TIFF or PSD can have layers or not have layers. Doesn't change the needlessness of PSD when we have TIFF!

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Employee

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32 Messages

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1.8K Points

7 years ago

Mike, others, thanks for your persistence on the topic. I'll give you some background on why this functionality isn't currently on our Lightroom roadmap. At the end of the day, product development comes down to a series of prioritization decisions. While a reasonable feature request, this is one that's never made the prioritization cut. One of the initial concerns was that the code required to interpret proprietary, layered PSD files would more than double the size of the Lightroom application. That's an incredible burden to place on all customers for something requested by a fraction. The team also believes strongly in supporting standards such as XMP, DNG and TIFF. Supporting a proprietary, layered PSD file is not a path the team would prioritize above other efforts. Also keep in mind the testing efforts required every time we update the Lightroom application. (8 releases per year) Validating proprietary PSD support could be disproportionately expensive relative to the amount of value we're providing with the feature.

While none of this background decreases the validity of your request, hopefully it gives you an idea of why the functionality has yet to make it into Lightroom.

Regards,
Tom Hogarty
Adobe Systems

1K Messages

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17.1K Points

So don't support layered files. Upon import, send the list of unsupported files to Photoshop and have Photoshop open and resave them (assuming Photoshop is installed.) See my feature idea below.

223 Messages

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3.5K Points

See my comment below. You shouldn't need to bloat your storage with extra layers that describe what's already there, essentially.

6 Messages

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122 Points

7 years ago

I'm totally willing to give this idea up if they make a true Dual screen usage a prioity, and the godz willing to allow the Dev modules to be from the apps interface so we can arrange them the way each person wants to work(I understand it is setup to have a default workflow for default users).

Another wish for maybe version 7 or 8 is to have the Bridge browser integrate with the Library mode but be a seperate application. The Library app would be a hybrid catalog and broswer. Other formats that LR doesn't support would be dimmed out(perhaps have a right click for external app to launch it), But at least you would see all files without hindering the catalog. This would be a mature app. It is still in the infancy stage and that is the direction it would need to go for true saturation and growth.

Tom, Thank you for letting the reality of the situation be a bit more clear.

1K Messages

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17.1K Points

3 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Convert unflattened PSD files on import.

Lightroom Classic will throw an error if you try to import PSD files which were saved without a flattened layer (Maximize Compatibility unchecked.) Besides being a poor design decision (can't even read Adobe's own native file format), the program offers no help beyond giving a list of unsupported files. Fixing the problem is left to the user.

Why not, if Photoshop is present on the system, have a preference to convert unsupported files in the background? Lightroom would send the list to Photoshop, Photoshop would open the files and save them with Maximize Compatibility, and Lightroom could then import them.

This seems like a fairly easy idea to implement.

223 Messages

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3.5K Points

This is not a very good workaround. A better workaround would be to actively "use" the Photoshop engine to display the natively-unsupported items. Much like one can embed a spreadsheet in a text document, using the spreadsheet program engine to display its part.

Photoshop has that engine ready to go. Why not use it if it's there.

1K Messages

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17.1K Points

I'd rather not rely on Photoshop being present. At least show an unrendered placeholder that can be opened and resaved as needed. Current implementation is worthless for those of us with thousands of legacy files.

223 Messages

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3.5K Points

Lightroom might as well *include* Photoshop's engine for rendering those files. Adobe has the source code. They could just include it as a file filter, not unlike a file filter that handles PNG or TIFF or whatever.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

Including the Photoshop engine in LR is simply not going to happen. Reading PSDs saved without compatibility is a different task from reading PNG, TIF and PSDs with compatibility maximised because they contain a preview which LR can extract.

If you want these files in LR, you're going to need to process them with an action/droplet/script that resaves them in compatible format. For new files, change your Photoshop settings to maximise compatibility, or use TIF.

1K Messages

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17.1K Points

Once again, that's zero help for someone with a lot of legacy files. Plus they could STILL add support for a simple placeholder.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

Actually, it's  very practical help rather than wasting energy on something Adobe are clearly not going to do. If you want those files in LR, it's in your power to do so.

I happen to agree with placeholders so people can catalogue any type of file they choose, but that's a different issue.