CarlosFerrari's profile

13 Messages

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230 Points

Mon, Dec 14, 2020 8:45 PM

Lightroom Classic & Desktop: disk read/write to SSD M1 Macs with Rosetta

Hi.
I'v just installed LR Classic on my M1 Macbook pro with 8G/256GB, and LR is broken.
It works blazing fast, but as fast it's destroying my SSD.
It wrote around 100GB of data in 15 minutes.

I have uploaded this video showing the issue. When culling a folder with around 1800 photos it wrote 7GB of data to the SSD in 30 seconds. (standard previews already created)

 

https://youtu.be/FWzdGvPWLfU


There's no way these SSD's will survive this. 
Adobe need to do something ASAP!

Specs:
Macbook Pro M1 8GB/256GB
LR Classic V10.1

Responses

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

6 m ago

Wow, somebody complaining that Lightroom is running too fast? It must be an April Fools joke.

 

My slow Intel Windows machine writes 50% faster than that and with years of using SSDs, none have failed yet. A really fast NVMe drive will write that much data in under 10 seconds.

 

So as the comedian said: whatca smokin Charlie? 

13 Messages

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230 Points

@bill_3305731 

That's not the point.
The bug is related with the amount of data written in 15 mins to the SSD, why LR would need to write 100gb of data, if the previews were already created when culling. There's no reason.  In that pace I would write 1TB of data for no use a day.


Anyway, I'v found that disabling the GPU acceleration lowers a bit the amount written to disk, but still not near the normal.

It would be nice if more people could verify this in their's M1.

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

The problem is that you don't understand how computers work and are the victim of a nonsense video on YouTube. 

13 Messages

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230 Points

Ye ye you’re the one who know things.

13 Messages

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230 Points

6 m ago

New updates,

It is probably swap, OS X gives too much mem to LR.

Disabling Graphics accelleration writes less to disk.

Not using external monitor writes less to disk.

Scrolling on develop seems to be when the disk usage is at peak.

I have created posts in 2 big OS X forums and people are looking into it too.
It's widespread.


Already asked them to post their findings here.

16 Messages

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232 Points

6 m ago

Honestly, I was at first very sceptical in regards to Carlos's reports but it is definitely a REAL ISSUE.
Swapping is all fine on modern machines but writing hundreds of gigabytes of data in a few hour session in Lightroom Classic is definitely not. Even the best SSDs (I mean, assuming real-world durability being as high as 1petabyte write lifetime) cannot survive this in the long run!


I have MBP 16GB/1TB so this behaviour is not limited to 8GB machines.


My last test was as follows:


- Launched nothing except Lightroom Classic.
- Lightroom Classic process sits at around 13-14GB of memory but inspecting the process shows that Virtual Memory grows steadily as you operate in "Develop" tab.

- What's most important this is reflected in writes to disk done by "kernel_task". In 15 minutes of scrolling through images and applying some presets at Random and I'm at whopping 20GB written to disk by kernel_task . And this is not some weird "cache writes" that do not affect the SSD like some people try to tell us.  SSD health tools confirm those writes.
- It doesn't happen when scrolling images in "Library" and basically doesn't persist when I do nothing or close Lightroom Classic.

I have no idea what's the reason but it seems like some Lightroom/Rosetta/Swapping bug. Feels almost like using Lightroom Classing @Rosetta makes kernel constantly drop GPU's memory content on disk (which would explain why disabling GPU acceleration helps a bit...).

Please Adobe, have a look at it!

16 Messages

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232 Points

6 m ago

The same thing happens with Lightroom CC. I think it's just basically massive memory leak by Adobe software. It'd be nice to verify against Intel machines.

Well, I guess it's the time to switch to Capture One (it does not do that, verified). 

16 Messages

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232 Points

6 m ago

ANOTHER UPDATE AFTER SOME INVESTIGATION:

Resetting preferences, rebuilding catalogue and all those tweaks did not help. 

What helps is playing with GPU acceleration settings.

For me, with the following setup:

- MBP M1 16GB RAM / 1TB

- No external display (I don't have access to mine at the moment and I'm afraid it's going to make an impact...)

The situation is following with different GPU acceleration settings:

- Full acceleration on:

  - Lightroom reserves around 23-25GB Virtual Memory at least;

  - ABSOLUTELY CRAZY SWAP WRITES

   ... and awesome performance.

- Basic acceleration:

   - Lightroom reserved around 16GB Virtual Memory;

   - OK behaviour, kernel_task is not writing to swap like crazy.

    ... performance still fine (as in very decent upgrade from 2016MBP13)

- No acceleration:

   - Lightroom reserved around 12GB Virtual Memory;

   - OK behaviour, kernel_task is not writing to swap like crazy.

    ... performance oh well, if that I'd have to live with, I'd be pissed because this is not what I've expected from this machine.

All in all, I think the reason for this madness with full GPU acceleration on is here:Untitled.jpg

When full acceleration is on Lightroom claims 10.5GB out of 16GB of unified RAM and writes some that to it like crazy. That results in crazy swapping. It's actually amazing how good it functions on M1 mac, no slowdowns but that heavy writes seem really dangerous. Even best SSDs cannot survive for more than 2-3 years 1-2TB writes per day. 

For now, I can live with basic acceleration and keeps fingers crossed that it'll solve the problem for me even with 4k display connected.

But it looks like something that Adobe SHOULD AND CAN SOLVE.

At the very least there should be an option to set memory value to let's say, 2-4GB.

It would still probably give us some performance improvement without crazy disk writes, at least on 16GB models. 

(edited)

13 Messages

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230 Points

6 m ago

@Rikk 

What can we do speed things up here?
Is there any logs that I can provide to help you look into this?


16 Messages

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232 Points

6 m ago

When full GPU acceleration is turned on (it's a default) Lightroom (M1 native) causes an extreme high number of writes to disk coming from `kernel_task`.
By extreme, I mean: 15 minutes of scrolling through images and applying some random presents and I'm at a whopping 20+GB written to disk by kernel_task. This doesn't stop after some time, disk writes continue to grow all the time. SSD health tools confirm those writes, one can easily reach 1TB of written data just because of Lightroom running without actually saving anything to disk. Modern SSDs have good longevity but with extended usage, this kind of behaviour will surely kill even the best one. 


At least with M1 Mac with 16GB RAM that I have this dangerous behaviour stops when I disable full GPU acceleration and enable basic one. 

This seems like a bug coming from the fact that M1 Macs are quite happy to provide any memory space needed by swapping and the fact that Lightroom recognized GPU Memory available as 10.5GB (so 10.5GB out of 16GB of "real" memory!) and writes to those 10.5 GBs like crazy.

1. At the very least the default setting should be basic acceleration and turning full acceleration should be accompanied by a warning.

2. Lightroom shouldn't use 10.5 GB GPU memory. It most probably doesn't need that much to achieve decent performance gain.  Maybe it would be the best if Adobe would allow to set it manually. 
3. And well, the best would be if Adobe would manage to make GPU acceleration behave more orderly in general, but that's probably harder given my experience ;) It seems like it's a memory leak all in all.  Otherwise, why the difference between basic and full acceleration while I'm actually not doing any heavy image edits (brushes, masks etc.)?

Exactly same things are happening with Lightroom Classic (but it's not native so you can always blame this on Rosetta; not in this case.).

Note: This comment was created from a merged conversation originally titled Lightroom @ M1 Mac causes extreme writes to disk when full GPU acceleration is used.

Adobe Administrator

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10.6K Messages

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140.7K Points

This thread is being merged into an authoritative thread for better tracking and response. 

Please don't make duplicate posts about the same issue. 

16 Messages

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232 Points

@Rikk Fine, I'm sorry for creating a duplicate. I did it to point out that this issue affects Adobe Lightroom CC [non - classic] which is already released as M1 Native. Otherwise I expect the problem being sidelined with "Lightroom Classic is non-native, issues are expected". 

16 Messages

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232 Points

6 m ago

Update:

With basic acceleration on the same thing happens but only after prolonged time of Lightroom being opened. It can be completely unused, it's enough to leave it open. That makes it quite obvious that it's a memory leak. 

1 Message

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60 Points

6 m ago

Commenting here to note that I've run into the same 'problem' on both the 8GB RAM version and the 16GB RAM version. 

Even did a head-to-head comparison against an intel MBP for the same workflow and noted that the RAM usage is significantly higher (and hence 'swap used' is also much higher).

I was the OP on this reddit thread (video included) 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Lightroom/comments/kg4bpm/investigating_lightroom_ram_performance_on_apples/

That being said, I'm open to the possibility that this isn't an "Adobe" problem but more of a result of the new M1 design. Still agnostic about it though, no technical background. 

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

My son isn't having any problems with his M1, 16gb. Some things are a little slower like scrolling in the Library module but only slightly. He's running completely stock. 

16 Messages

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232 Points

Yes, it runs very much ok... unless you let it run for some time and eat memory to the point that even efficient swapping of M1s cannot accommodate.

I have some technical background and I’m quite sure it’s Adobe problem. Apple could solve it only by doing what everybody is accusing them of - closing the ecosystem to the point of policing every app’: memory usage behaviour.

3 Messages

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82 Points

@Declan Tan @Blaraka  The Lightroom memory leak exists in Windows machines as well. The longer it's open, the more memory is hogged. I've written to Adobe countless times about it. They simply don't care.

13 Messages

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230 Points

6 m ago

New update:

Even with with GPU acceleration disabled I was getting around 100gb/hour of writes (down from around 200 lol) but I'v found that creating Smart Previews and disconnecting the disk reduces further the disk writes. I haven't tested extensively but it seems to be at around 25-35gb/ hour. 

To reduce the disk writes, I have disabled every program, quitting Adobe Cloud, dropbox, closing safari etc etc, there's only LR running because he takes up every single bit o ram available.

We urge you Adobe to fix this ASAP. It has been reported that the 16GB version has the same issue, so it's not directly related to the RAM shipped with the Mac M1's. 

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

Welcome to the wonderful world of emulation, i. e. Rosetta. Rosetta is a temporary crutch for folks who have a need to use a piece of lightweight Intel software while waiting for the native version. With all the extra emulation layers, it's amazing that it works as well as it does. Apple deserves a pat on the back as it is a huge improvement overall the Motorola 6800 to Intel version that made everything run slow. But there's no way that you should expect a heavyweight application like Lightroom to run well on your lightweight configuration. You need to wait for the native mode version. 

16 Messages

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232 Points

As stated, repeateadly, the same problem (runaway RAM usage resulting with crazy swap disk writes) occurs with M1 native Lightroom CC with full GPU acceleration (which is an auto setting).

Also, since you were suggesting that OP doesn’t know how modern computers work... Rosetta 2 is actually not an emulation, the technical principle behind it is different. Therefore, it would be nice if you stop writing about things you know nothing about.

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

Do some research as you clearly don't understand emulators. But to be more precise, it's a combination of an emulator and a simulator. It emulates the API differences between macOS on Intel and M1 while simulating the differences between the hardware instruction sets. Quite an amazing tool. 

16 Messages

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232 Points

Surely, I do not fully understand emulators. For better or worse I'm few abstraction layers up in my work.
Neither do you though. And yet you spit out posts schooling people here without addressing the issue. First you tried to convince us that writing 100GB per hour to disk caused by simple using Lightroom is totally fine and "how modern computers work", now you're saying it's just Rosetta.

1. Yes, Rosetta 2 works extremely well for what it is.
2. Yes, it's possible and expected that Intel apps run through Rosetta will have bugs and/or performance issues. The developer should not be blamed for those issues.
3. But... Adobe claims that there are no known issues in regards to running Lightroom Classic through Rosetta. It's not true. Even if we forget about the issue described in this thread, there are some quirks like extreme lagginess when pictures are opened in full screen mode.
4. In regards to issue at hand, all of this Rosetta talk doesn't matter at all. The issue is not limited to Rosetta. Exactly the same thing (runaway GPU usage / leak when GPU acceleration is on) happens with M1 Native Lightroom released to great fanfare.

FYI. I have 16GB M1 MacBook Pro. My previous machine was 16GB late 2016 MacBook Pro. Lightroom was quite slow on it and claimed a lot of RAM but wasn't leaking it like crazy and causing high SSD writes.

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

Surely, I do not fully understand emulators. For better or worse I'm few abstraction layers up in my work. Neither do you though. 

 

Since you have admitted that you don't understand emulators how can you know enough to criticize someone else? You should stick to what you know and understand. 

    

My son's previous MacBook Pro 16 ran Lightroom without any issues. Likewise for his new M1. So what have you done to your machine to cause your problems? 

16 Messages

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232 Points

I've admitted it because I wanted to cut the topic as it's not a direct cause of a problem reported.
Moreover, I'm humble enough to know that my slim knowledge of the topic (as distributed backend systems engineer) doesn't entitle to me to say that I know how "emulators work" or for that matter Rosetta works.
From what you’re saying it seems quite obvious that you know at most equally little, yet, for no reason at all you offer false explanations (for people who understand anything about how computer works it’s obvious) and  attack people for reporting problems with Adobe software. I guess, you're Adobe’s frontline troll or something.

I hope just a voluntary one. Otherwise it would make Adobe look real bad.


To satisfy your immense curiosity, I did nothing to my machine. It was i5 with 2-core CPU and without any GPU beyond Intel's integrated crap from that era.  Lightroom was simply sluggish in develop mode when working with high resolution RAWs on 4k screen. Frankly, given the spec of the laptop, it's totally understandable. I've remained paying Adobe customer despite options that would work much faster because despite shortcomings I think Adobe gives me the most complete package.

Now, since you seem very knowledgeable,  please answer my questions:

- Why is Adobe Lightroom CC Native M1 version with full GPU acceleration turned on using growing amount of RAM that results with excessive disk usage due to swapping?
- Why is the RAM usage growing even if user literally does nothing just keeps the app opened in the background?

maybe you’ll illuminate me and I'll understand that the software is perfect and any problems are all my fault :)))

have a good day ;)

(edited)

3 Messages

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92 Points

5 m ago

Adobe pls fix this ASAP. This is a showstopper for most serious LR users. 
The swapping is out of control and it’s quite clear this is an Adobe issue since it also effects the native app. 

1 Message

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60 Points

5 m ago

Following this thread for sure. I just got a MacBook Air 8c/8gpu/8GB/512GB and am coming from a MacBook Pro 15.4in/16GB/512GB/560x. The Air I was editing about 100 photos for the first time, and it got hotter than I was hoping (basing my performance hopes on all those YouTube reviews, especially that Air was up to the task and enough). I even wanna say it got as hot as my ‘19 Pro used to.

What seems to be a sure positive between the two, is I feel the Air definitely has better battery life than the Pro I used to have.

I will definitely see what numbers I get in my next editing session regarding the swap/kernel. I’m glad to see it’s not just me, but I’m also sad to see it’s not fixed yet.

Also, I’ve got 14 days to return, and I’m not sure if I should hold out on solution, or be return and get a 16GB Air, or even a Pro for the fans, BUT be laptopless for almost a month because only way to get 16 is through Apple right now.

6 Messages

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114 Points

5 m ago

Same problem here. 

I purchased an Mac mini M1 with 16GB/256GB for a better performance experience than on my old windows machine. First tests with LrC were awesome, but than I looked into the swap usage... After editing around 20 RAW images over 100 GB of data were written to the SSD. That is crazy. 

The problem occurs with Lr CC too, so it is an adobe problem, not an apple one with rosetta. 

I am afraid of using LrC because my 256GB SSD should have even a lower TBW life time as the higher models.

It seems switching the GPU acceleration to Basic Mode fixes the problem, but the performance of LrC is a piece of sh*t on a 4K display after that. 

I really regret purchasing two more years of creative cloud some month ago. 

 

7 Messages

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190 Points

5 m ago

Any updates to this issue?

I’m adding to the voices here as someone who’s seen this issue on their new 16 GB M1 MacBook Pro.

I’m frankly afraid to use Lightroom right now because I’m quite certain that the ridiculous swap usage will significantly reduce the performance off the machine within a year or two. I have experienced it firsthand with my previous Mac.

Adobe team, please look into this and fix this issue. This is probably a severely under reported one, as the swap memory of these machines is fast enough at the moment for the issue to be unnoticeable. People have no idea it’s killing their machines like nothing else, and they will see it a year or two down the line when it’s too late to regain the last performance. 

As a person who loves using Lightroom, I thought I’d bring Adobe’s attention to this issue in the hopes that it is fixed and I can continue using it.

7 Messages

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190 Points

To be more specific, I have the latest Lightroom, native for M1. Not Rosetta. On an M1 MacBook with 16 GB memory and the latest MacOS.

400GB written to the disk in a day. 14GB RAM usage while doing nothing. Crazy. Whereas iPads fly through Lightroom with all their limitations without slowing down over time. For now, I’m convinced it’s a bug.

3 Messages

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92 Points

5 m ago

I suspect this is a difficult and fundamental design problem with LR classic, and not easy to fix. Thus the lack of response from anyone at Adobe. Given that hardly anyone is complaining since it’s hard to notice the issue, they’re just ignoring this. 

Adobe, we deserve an answer. We are paying customers. This is not an open source project. At least let us know that you can replicate the issue and that you’re working on it. Thank you. 

1.1K Messages

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12.4K Points

Lightroom is native on the M1 but not Lightroom Classic. 

16 Messages

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232 Points

The same thing happens with Adobe Lightroom (CC, not Classic) that has Apple Sillicon native version and is supported by Adobe on the M1 machines.