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scott_hortop's profile

10 Messages

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392 Points

Tue, Nov 15, 2011 9:20 AM

Acknowledged

Lightroom Classic: Chokes on large keyword lists (Windows only)

Please see the image - I cannot scroll any further down the keyword list after the word 'coloured'. This is a much more recent problem than the separate keyword export issue I have just reported but it means that I cannot do even a manual fix of that other issue.Help much appreciated!Scott

Responses

4 Messages

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168 Points

3 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Lightroom Classic blanks screen when keywords exceed 1020 starting with same lett....

I recently found that on entering the letter "s" in the Keyword Tags box, the screen would blank and then flash.  Pressing Esc or any other letter would bring it back.

Having carried out some tests, I have found that this behaviour occurs once there are more than about 1,020 keywords which start with the same letter.

Having counted initial letters of keywords in Excel, I found I had 1,088 beginning with "s".  As a test, I increased the number of keywords commencing with the next most frequent character, which happened to be "c".  As the number beginning with "c" approached 1,020, the drop down text of suggested keywords (typing "c" in the Keyword Tags box) began to blur, and once it reached 1,020 (approximately), the same screen blanking behaviour as I had on typing "s" occurred.  Removing a couple of the "c" keywords stopped the blanking behaviour, adding a couple to replace them started it again.

There seems to be a clear bug which, at least on my Windows 10 system with plenty of RAM, causes Lightroom to choke when searching its database if it contains more than about 1,020 keywords which begin with the same letter being searched.

Champion

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

Windows LR has a long-standing bug that Adobe has decided not to fix -- it chokes when you get more than about 1500 keywords. The only workaround is to introduce hierarchy (or more hierarchy) into your keywords and keep most of the hierarchy collapsed in the Keyword List panel.

4 Messages

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168 Points

Thanks for the reply.

My keywords are already in a hierarchy, which goes some 6 or 7 levels deep in places, maybe even more in a few instances. It has a dozen or so top level category headings to which the list is collapsed most of the time because any other view would be hopelessly unwieldy. It sounds as if I have been lucky that it has worked for as long as it has, because I reckon I have about 3,300 keywords (plus synonyms which would approximately triple the count).

If Adobe is not going to address this issue, I guess it is going to have to be goodbye Lightroom. There is little point to having a database which is incapable of growing as your library of images expands. Maybe Adobe sees the cataloguing and keywording functions as being for amateurs or small-time users and accepts that those with larger portfolios will look elsewhere, but with the proliferation of digital photography I would imagine that more and more people are going to come up against these limits.

It is disappointing that long standing limitations in the keywording functions generally have not received attention for years. This seems to be another, of which I was not previously aware.

Champion

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

Note that the bug only strikes when you have more than about 1500 keywords currently displayed. So by keeping the hierarchy collapsed, you won't encounter the bug. Rather than explicitly expanding the hierarchy, you can use the Search box in the Keyword List panel to get to the keywords you're interested in.  And I quite agree -- painful and annoying.

294 Messages

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4.5K Points

I, as well as others, can confirm that this issue does not occur under the Mac OS—in any version going back to 2014.

It's strictly a Bill Gates bug.

2 Messages

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84 Points

2 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Moving keywords in the keyword list.

LR CC 8.0
There is a problem moving keywords from one hierarchy level to another using the mouse (drag & drop).

Steps to reproduce (in my case):

- 2000 items in the root of the keyword list
- OK: Moving one item (e.g. number 385) under another item to generate a new hierarchy level.
- Not OK: Moving one item (e.g. number 1885) under another item to generate a new hierarchy level or just moving it to another level. LR works some time and then all items in the keyword list are marked up to the item number 1885.

This was tested on two different Windows 10 PCs, with a "work" catalog and with complete new catalog. On all test scenarios the tests were OK from item 1 to 1649. With number 1650 (exactly) and higher all tests went wrong.

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

2 years ago

LR also chokes when there are more than about 1500 folders in the Folders panel or 1500 collections in the Collections panel. The original sin here was Adobe's.

Every
 Windows application with large scrolling lists  has to cope with the maximum size that Windows imposes on low-level windows (32K pixels) by repainting the windows as necessary. Most applications do that by using commonly available libraries of user-interface controls that do the work for them. 

But Adobe took a shortcut when they implemented LR Windows, choosing to implement their own controls but failing to complete the work. They did it for Library grid view but not Folders, Collections, Keyword List, and other panels. And they've never owned up to taking that shortcut.  See here for details: 
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/bug-that-causes-collections-and-publish-servi...

2 Messages

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74 Points

2 years ago

The problem is that even when you DO get a hierarchy going, if you didn't do it from the very beginning there are still a ton of unsorted keywords which you can't get into the hierarchy because they won't drag/drop.
Has anyone worked around this by exporting the list to Excel and moving stuff around in there? It seems like it would be doable but insanely tedious -- anybody have any tips/shortcuts?

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

Unfortunately, you can't use Metadata > Export Keywords and Import Keywords to rearrange your hierarchy without losing all the existing assignments of the keywords to photos.

But here's a trick for introducing hierarchy into a very large flat list: Type the name of the keyword you want to move and the name of the new parent keyword into the Keyword List panel's search box.  That will show just those keywords containing one of the words.

For example, to move the top-level keyword "Jacqueline's Birthday" under the parent keyword Events > Birthdays, I could enter "Birthdays Jacqueline" into the search box and get this:



Now it's straightforward to drag "Jacqueline's Birthday" onto Events > Birthdays.

2 Messages

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74 Points

THANK YOU! That is BRILLIANT!!!

6 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I was just bitten by this bug and am disappointed that LR Classic has a problem with a modest number of keywords. I was able to use John's great suggestions to collapse some of my hierarchy so that I could resume moving keywords. I have a well-developed hierarchy. Now I am thinking that even with collapsing, this bug may return when my taxonomy grows beyond a certain point. Is there any thought to fixing this limitation or, more likely since I think Classic (I have LR 5.7 on Windows) isn't being maintained, probably not? I teach LR and had liked to always have the latest version, but once LR moved to a subscription model, I balked. Maybe it's time to just subscribe. Thanks, John, for the workaround!

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

To clarify: There are two versions of subscription LR, Lightroom Classic, the latest version of the traditional desktop-focused version (now at version 8), and just plain Lightroom, the "new" cloud-focused version with far fewer features but available on mobile devices.  See here for the differences: 
https://www.lightroomqueen.com/lightroom-cc-vs-classic-features/

(Thank Adobe marketers for the perspicuous naming.)

Lightroom Classic is still being maintained, and Adobe has fixed many bugs reported here in the last year or so, seemingly more than the previous several years before the "Classic" label was applied.

Unfortunately, this too-many-keywords bug is still present in LR Classic 8.3.1. In my opinion, it's not likely to be ever fixed, since it's the result of shortcuts Adobe took in the early development of LR on Windows, and fixing it would take a significant amount of effort and may require specialized skills that the current engineering team lacks:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/bug-that-causes-collections-and-publish-servi...

I don't know if the too-many-keywords bug occurs in cloud-focused Lightroom. It wouldn't surprise me if it does, since I think it may share the same underlying code base for implementing the Mac and Windows user interfaces.

133 Messages

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2.5K Points

a year ago

Mine only goes to the "n"s. See from above they're blaming windows. Seems if you wrote some code that doesn't work on the target OS, you need write new code that does work. Much as I love LR, ya gotta wonder at the abilities of some of the developers - or at the project managers for decisions that make the development team seem culpable for functional failures. If a feature is useful enough and in demand enough, not making sure it's working properly is inexcusable. Glad the LR team doesn't work on airplanes, or life support systems, or nuclear missile guidance systems...

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

In principle, you are right, but it's just hot air - this is unlikely to be fixed. So gradually introduce some hierarchy into your keyword list, learn to use the filter box (see John Ellis's tip above), and move on.

2 Messages

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70 Points

a year ago

Dear Adobe

I have a keyword in my list that has, probably because of an unintended error I have made, developed a list of several hundred child words. Since this word is used to build a smart collection, I have to clean up this list of associated child words to get the smart collection to function correctly.

But I am on a PC and my keyword list is several hundred words long so, because of the keyword bug you have neglected to address since version 1, the child words that need to be moved to the main list will not move. No drag and drop for me. So now I have to go, word by word, through my main keyword list (and probably this child list as well) and delete all of the seldom used and alternate version words until I get the number of words low enough for the drag and drop to work so I can move the child words to the main list. 

Thanks so much for not addressing this problem. I am really looking forward to sorting this out word by word. Not really. PLEASE!! FIX THIS PROBLEM!! Thanks.

230 Messages

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3.9K Points

a year ago

Richard:

Not a perfect solution, but an option to deal with the problem (I am not going to debate if it is an Adobe issue of a Windows issue) is to group all your keywords starting with "A" in one keyword group, all your "B" words in a group etc. That reduces the  (prime) keyword numbers to a more manageable length  and you can then open up one group and do the cleaning up with that one group.

Just a thought that might help your situation or not.

2 Messages

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70 Points

a year ago

Well that would be good - if I could copy, paste, drag, drop. or manage the list in any way that would let me do that. But I can't. And if I do that (after I have managed to clean this up enough to get it to function), won't all those child words potentially foul up my smart collections just as my current problem does?

230 Messages

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3.9K Points

a year ago

When I did it, I dragged/dropped successfully (in groups of 20-30)

Sorry can't help you with the second question re your smart collections as I don't use them.

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

a year ago

"won't all those child words [A, B, C, ...] potentially foul up my smart collections just as my current problem does?"

No, not unless you have a "real" keyword that's a single letter.

3 Messages

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80 Points

10 months ago

I have a similar problem, an abbreviated keyword list, but with a twist.
My keyword list in Lightroom properly displays all keywords when running Lightroom Classic 9.2.1 under Windows 7, but the keyword list is abbreviated when running the exact same Lightroom Classic 9.2.1 under Windows 10.  Both machines are using the exact same catalog.

3 Messages

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80 Points

FYI, my list has a total of 3152 keywords, but under Windows 10 it shows only up to item 1471. 

Also, I believe the max keywords for Lightroom Classic under Windows is 3270 from what others have reported, but I think that limit prevents someone from creating any more keywords and has nothing to do with scrolling the list, correct?

Any suggestions would be appreciated, including alternatives to Lightroom.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

Wrong. It's all about visibility. You can create more - you just can't see them in the keywording list. So introduce a little hierarchy into the list, or use the filter box. It's crap that Adobe don't fix this, but who wants to scroll down 1600+ lines anyway?

3 Messages

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80 Points

OK, so now that I'm painted into a corner, I have to change my keywords to utilize a hierarchy, but Adobe Lightroom has a problem there as well !!!  I can only drag and drop items within the top 30% of the already significantly abbreviated keyword list!

Yes, that's right.  I'm trying to implement the recommended workaround to Adobe's well-known problem, and even THAT doesn't work properly!  Right now I can only see items from A to I in the keyword list, and only items from A to the middle D's can be dragged, with the remaining items simply ignoring the mouse drag event.

The hits just keep on coming with Adobe Lightroom.

Lightroom, what a piece of garbage!  How can Adobe in good conscience continue to take people's money while leaving fundamental usability problems unaddressed FOR YEARS???

And don't give me the excuse "it's a Windows problem".  BS.  I was a software developer for over 25 years.  ANYTHING can be done if there is a will and desire to fix it.  Adobe obviously doesn't have the skill, or desire, to fix it.

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5.6K Messages

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98.3K Points

10 months ago

"My keyword list in Lightroom properly displays all keywords when running Lightroom Classic 9.2.1 under Windows 7, but the keyword list is abbreviated when running the exact same Lightroom Classic 9.2.1 under Windows 10."

The maximum number of keywords LR can display depends on the maximum size of a low-level Windows window and the pixel height of a keyword row in the Keyword List display. It's been years since I checked, but I think the maximum size of a low-level window changed somewhere between Windows 7 and Windows 10, from 2^15-1 (32,767) to 2^16-1 (65,535).  The height of a row in the Keyword List depends on the Windows display scaling (called different names in Windows 7 and Windows 10), and the LR setting Preferences > Interface > Font Size.

On my Windows 10 configuration, with Font Size set to Automatic, the Keyword List displays 3270 keywords, each row of which is 20 pixels high. This corresponds to 20 * 3270 = 65,180 pixels, leaving 135 pixels for displaying the header row and borders.  With Font Size set to 200%, the Keyword List displays 1718 keywords, each row of which is 38 pixels high. This corresponds to 38 * 1718 = 65,284, leaving 251 pixels for the header and borders.

9 Messages

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248 Points

7 months ago

Has this issue been fixed (either by Adobe or by Microsoft)? I had that listing limitation and saw only about 1700 keywords. After reading up on here, started using nested master keywords. Since I have been doing that, I can now see all of my remaining keywords and it is about 2800!
Windows 10, latest everything.

1 Message

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60 Points

7 months ago

No. I had to go through a very involved process to get mine organized. There was a lot of deleting insignificant words and copying and pasting. I finally organized them alphabetically using the each letter as the master. That way the list can grow without running out of room.