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44 Messages

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3.1K Points

Thu, Oct 19, 2017 7:11 AM

164

Lightroom Classic : Ability to sync Keywords with the Lightroom Ecosystem

Keywords do not sync correctly: When added on the mobile app (iOS), they do not appear in LR classic and not in LR Web (I deleted the new LR CC immediately, this version does not make sense to me).
Same problem into the other direction: Keywords from LR classic do not appear on the mobile app. 
Attention: At this stage the whole keywording within the iOS app should not be used!

Responses

16 Messages

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428 Points

3 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Keyword sync beetween Lightroom Classic and Mobile.

Good evening!
Should not keywords be synchronized between Lightroom Classic CC and Lightroom Mobile?
Those that I insert in the Mobile version should end in the Classic version and vice versa ...
I am wrong?

Champion

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

Unfortunately, Adobe has indicated that they don't plan on improving the sync between LR 7 (desktop) and LR CC (cloud).

2 Messages

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138 Points

You would think so wouldn't you. Otherwise what is the point in having both versions syncing. But it seems that isn't how Adobe see people using the software...

945 Messages

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16K Points

Indeed!
You know the software you pay monthly for? For the the « continuous improvements »? Well some basic features are not developed... not even a warning message. Too bad, isn’t it ?

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

I think Adobe is clear in how it looks at both. You and I may not like it, but their point of view is simple and clear. Lightroom Classic is the version for local use, not cloud synching. Yes, it does have a few synching options from the time that Lightroom CC was not yet around, and Adobe won't REMOVE those options now that Lightroom CC is available, but Lightroom Classic is not meant for cloud synching, period. If cloud synching is important to you, they want you to use Lightroom CC. As said, I don't like it either and I'm not defending it, just explaining why you can continue this thread forever without anything changing.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

945 Messages

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16K Points

Too bad LR Cc is does not respond to many photographers needs.
People will continue to request this feature because there is no reason for Adobe not to finish their work. It is clearly a marketing decision and not a technical limitation.

4 Messages

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226 Points

this is all our logic, unfortunately the logic of Adobe works along some marketing decissions and not their customer needs, disappointing really.

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

It's probably both technical and marketing. Lightroom CC only knows 'flat' keywords, Lightroom Classic has hierarchical keywords (meaning you could have two identical keywords in different hierarchies). That means that you can't simply sync them right now. Of course it should be possible to find a solution, so it's probably a marketing decision not to spend time and money on that.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

We can understand the logic. One is for standalone, the other is for cloud.
But how the hell because that if we want the cloud, we need to leave all what perfectly make Lightroom functionalities be Lightroom.
I think LR CC is now a 24 month old program development and such basic feature are not implemented!
They have to hire some Indians cheap and competent team and we will have all this feature in months.

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

288 Messages

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5.2K Points

3 years ago

Have converted / filled my keywords to others fields which are synched, but the VERY BAD thing is that without an online connection I cannot search for pictures in LR CC mobile. Imagine you want to show pictures to friends and you cannot find , because Adobe are not allowing and offline search. Very disappointing. And I pay monthly for this software.

29 Messages

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564 Points

2 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Lightroom CC/Classic: Keywords not updated; syncing problematic.

I tried using the new LR CC on my desktop, together with LR Classic CC.  I found the latter to be similar to CC for Web, with some additions.  Syncing worked fine if, for instance, I added a star rating to one of my photos, removed it from an album, or stopped syncing a specific album.  Right away, the changes would propagate to LR CC and CC for Web.

However, the same could not be said for keywords (which, of course, are only relevant to LR CC, but not CC for Web).  First off, I discovered that LR CC was only picking up keywords that had been written as metadata to disk.  That means that before syncing a collection from LR Classic, I needed to save metadata to file.  If I had already synced the collection and then saved the metadata, the changes were not picked up by LR CC.  Even if I quit and restarted the program, the metadata was not reloaded.  And that's despite the fact that LR Classic would immediately sync the file anew whenever I saved the metadata to file.  

The only way I could get LR CC to re-read the metadata was to first stop syncing the collection from within LR Classic, then to delete all the individual photos from the "All Photos" view within LR CC, and then to sync the collection again.

(Incidentally, related to this is the issue of how to control which keywords are written to file.  I had indicated not to export certain keywords, yet those were still saved as metadata and picked up by LR CC.  And even this behavior was not consistent.  Certain higher-level keywords appear to have been applied to some photos but not others within the same album.)

Another issue is that there doesn't seem to be a way to edit keywords.  At some point, I had corrected the spelling for someone's name keyword on LR Classic.  The earlier spelling seems to have been saved to metadata, because when I synced a photo of the person, LR CC had a keyword for each spelling.  I could remove the incorrect keyword from the individual photo, but there didn't seem to be a way to do this across the whole system.

29 Messages

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564 Points

John Ellis, or whoever merged this thread, would it be possible to also include all the original comments?  I think they add some useful information that is not present in this main thread.

Champion

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

Unfortunately, the forum software makes merging of the associated comments very painful. If you see particular comments you want visible here, I suggest copying them here under your own name (with attribution).

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

> I could remove the incorrect keyword from the individual photo, but there didn't seem to be a way to do this across the whole system.

There's a trick on the desktop LR CC app. Select All Photos, then the Refine button. Filter to show the photos with the "incorrect" keyword, then select all. Then in the Keywords panel, it'll show the incorrect keyword, and clicking on it will delete it from all of the selected photos.

29 Messages

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564 Points

John, if the original thread with comments will not be deleted, I suppose it's enough to inform latecomers that it would be worth checking out the prior discussion at the thread

29 Messages

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564 Points

Thanks, Victoria.  You had pointed this out in the original thread from 7 months ago, but my original post has now been transplanted to here.

Champion

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

All the merged threads are preserved, and though it’s not at all obvious, you can get to them by clicking the link at the top of the merged post.

44 Messages

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3.1K Points

Update: In the meanwhile there seems to start some kind of caption sync between LR classic and LR mobile, although I did not check that with hierarchical keywords.
But I am happy that captions which I added "on the road" are no longer lost but show up in LR classic

5 Messages

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126 Points

I'll ask this question here as well.

Workflow Question -  on syncing metadata. I am a new Lightroom user. Through lots of trial and error, I realized I needed BOTH Lightroom CC and Lightroom Classic which I now have. As many have discussed, and I have learned through painful experiences, both versions don't always play nicely with one another and are a bit of a disaster.   

For those using both Lightroom CC and Lightroom Classic, can you share the most effective workflow that you use?

Here is what I have figured out so far. 
1 - Download new photos to Lightroom CC ( I heard in a training, that if you upload to Lightroom Classic they will not sync with Lightroom CC).
2 - In Lightroom CC - rate all photos with stars and checkmarks, etc.
3 - In Lightroom CC - Add Keywords (After doing this in CC with 2,000 photos, and syncing with classic, I found out the keywords don't upload to Classic.) If I do this in Lightroom CC will the keywords be added to the metadata on the web? OR do keywords need to be done in Lightroom Classic, or do I have to do it in both places?
4 - Should I add the Title and Caption for my photos in Lightroom CC or in Lightroom Classic and why?
5 - Then Switch to Lightroom Classic and sync the photo's and then add the metadata, creator data, and location to all of my photos as this feature ISN'T available in CC and is only available in Lightroom Classic.
6 - Then add my watermark to all of my photos in Lightroom Classic, as this feature is also NOT AVAILABLE  in Lightroom CC.
7 - Image hardening? What do you use for additional protection of your photos?

From this point, what is the best way to get all of my images uploaded onto my website? 
Do I try and do it from Lightroom Classic OR Lightroom CC. 
Which keywords and metadata will the crawlers on google pick up when trying to index the images? 
Will it pick up the keywords in Lightroom CC OR Lightroom Classic?
Should I even bother putting keywords into Lightroom Classic? Does anyone know these questions?

Is there anything in my workflow you would suggest doing differently or add anything?
Has anyone on here used the Plug-ins suggested above to sync their keywords or other data? I think it is called the Photographers Toolbox?

Any other things you would suggest as a newer user to Lightroom? Did I forget anything?

Any insights you could provide would be greatly appreciated!

30 Messages

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1K Points

My advice is not to bother with Lightroom CC, it isn’t fit for use by serious photographers.

I do everything in Lightroom Classic and forego the syncing.

What platform is your website on? I use Portfolio, so have a collection for that. I also use WordPress and use their Lightroom plug in to export straight from Lightroom Classic - another thing you can’t do on CC. It is worth searching for your website platform plus Lightroom to see if anyone has already made a plug in.

251 Messages

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6K Points

Same as Lewis if you are a pro and run a website do not bother with CC. CC is a fun addition to Classic at best to do some minor editing on a mobile device from the couch and to shoot raw on your phone and have them sync automatically to your desktop in Classic. It is not a full-fledged solution. It might turn into one in the far future but isn't near one yet. It is only near if you only live online and have only very minor online sharing needs. 

To answer 1 by 1:
1 - they told you wrong in your training. You can sync from Classic to CC. The only limitation is that it only syncs smart previews and not the full raw files. The smart previews are more than enough to edit and caption/title on your mobile device. Moreover, the advantage of this is that this allows you to selectively sync as in Classic you have to mark what you want to sync. CC cannot selectively sync. It always syncs everything. With the Classic syncing method, you can even after the fact upload the same raw files in CC and they will get automatically linked giving you the full raw online.

2 and 3 - stars sync back and forth to Classic as you found. Keywords don't. CC has a flat keyword hierarchy and Classic supports nested hierarchies (e.g. California -> San Francisco -> Bay Bridge). I prefer the nested variant to be able to distinguish Crater Lake Oregon from Crater Lake Colorado. That is not possible in CC. There is a way to sync keywords from Classic to CC if you have already fully keyworded in Classic before you set the image to sync with CC. Best advice -> don't bother keywording in CC.

4 - titles and captions sync so it doesn't matter where you do this.

5 - This is exactly why you should always import in Classic as it can be setup to automatically add all your identifying metadata to all your images on import with a metadata preset. An essential feature not available in CC.

6 - It is possible to export simple watermarks on images from CC, but only from the mobile version. Indeed watermarking is full fledged on Classic and virtually non-existent in CC.

7 - Make sure you have embedded metadata with your copyright and use watermarks on exported images is basically the only thing you can do. These are both possible on Classic and not possible or very hard in CC.

website: Don't bother with CC. it is only useful for using with the lightroom web stuff which is easy but not scalable and not useful for anybody doing pro work. If you do anything else for web services (smug mug, zenfolio, etc.) you are lightyears better off with Classic and using publish services. It is possible to make it work but not without jumping through many hoops.

The bottom line is that CC is fun and OK as a companion to Classic to do some light edits on a tablet or to ingest images on the road that then automatically sync down to your main catalog. It is actually quite great for this. Keywording is not well done so don't bother trying to do that in CC. I would advice anybody wanting to do more than share one or two images online to use Classic as their main platform. CC is just still extremely far from being a realistic solution for even moderate photographic needs. Editing images is great and full-fledged. It's great that it syncs everywhere but just misses basically every other feature.

Champion

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2.2K Messages

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37.1K Points

Bravo! Over my 50 years in computer system development, marketing, and sales I've seen this happen numerous times! It's a hallmark shift from Engineering focused product development to a fully Marketing driven model.

The current Classic & CC product models target two different groups (experienced desktop and casual mobile users). In my opinion there's no way to satisfy both groups with the one CC product. By allowing the "compatibility gap" to widen between Classic and CC Adobe are burning the bridge to maintaining pro and serious user market share. It's a paradigm shift toward focus on easier to use "creativeproducts" with Ai and mobile focused GUI.

I understand Adobe's desire to capture the untapped mobile user market. However, throwing the baby out with the bathwater is totally unnecessary in my opinion. It's not too late for Adobe to "fix" this situation. I fact if Adobe had taken additional steps to maintain compatibility between the two products this wouldn't even be necessary. Unfortunately, Adobe has stated no new mobile features will be added to LR Classic so the direction is pretty clear!

945 Messages

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16K Points

Thank you, Todd!

5 Messages

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126 Points

@Jao van de Lagemaat, thank you for the detailed breakdown,  it is so helpful! I really appreciate it, this helps clarify things so much!  Can you explain further your statement in #1 - " With the Classic syncing method, you can even after the fact upload the same raw files in CC and they will get automatically linked giving you the full raw online." If I want to back up all my photos online through Lightroom CC at full resolution, and I mainly use Lightroom Classic, what is the best way to do that?

@Lewis Craik thank you for your input and for the info on the plug-in for Lightroom all of these tips will make the process so much easier! Todd Shaner thank you as well.

251 Messages

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6K Points

Jileen, there are two ways to do what you want:
  1. First and fastest even though it is more steps is to import through Classic setting the new imports to sync. This will upload smart previews of the images to the cloud. If this is done, then open up Lightroom CC on your desktop and import the same images. Lightroom CC will sync the full raw images to the cloud and link them to the smart previews already there so you won't get duplication doing this.
  2. Simplest but by far the slowest is to ONLY import the images in Lightroom CC. They will sync up to the cloud and then download to Lightroom Classic. The advantage of this method is that it is simple. The disadvantage is that it is really slow as you have to upload the images to the cloud first and then download them (that's all automatic of course but still will take a while even on fast connections) before you can start using them in Classic. That is why method 1 is best.
P.S. all this could have been avoided if Adobe would simply add full raw sync capability to Classic. I started a thread here years ago on that (see link below). Please plus it even though this boat has long sailed unfortunately: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-classic-should-be-able-to-sync-full...

26 Messages

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872 Points

2 years ago

This is certainly a disappointing limitation. But what's especially disappointing is that it's entirely unexpected (since all other fields are synchronized), and there's no communication in the product that this field won't be synchronized.

At minimum, I'd recommend adding a warning to the user the first time they try to edit keywords on a collection synchronized with Lightroom Classic; that would avoid a lot of frustration and confusion as users attempt to troubleshoot why keywords aren't synchronizing (even though everything else is). 

In my case, I spent an hour troubleshooting this before looking online—and realizing that it was "by design".

26 Messages

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872 Points

For what it's worth, I've added a feature suggestion to at least warn users that keyword syncing isn't supported. I'd much rather see full keyword syncing, but if that's not realistic then users need to be aware of the limitation 

945 Messages

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16K Points

Nah, Adobe needs to tackle this HUGE omission! It’s syncing goddamn strings, not rocket science!

3 Messages

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242 Points

I agree that it's a huge omission, and I want to see it rectified, but while they look like strings in the UI, I believe the internal implementation is much more complex (in order to support hierarchies and global keyword renaming, etc.).

29 Messages

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1.3K Points

2 years ago

For me one of the most valuable cloud integrations would be synchronized keywords between the Lightroom Classic CC infrastructure and Lightroom CC - because I like to use my tablet at home on the garden deck or sofa to surf the web and then, when I feel like it, I would like to use it to add keywords to images that still didn't get any. So I am forced to sit in a stuffy edge of my workspace which I have set up to have little outside light (so that I get the benefit of correct image display on my main screen) and work on those tags. It really should have been there years ago.

Oh, and I would like to be able to search through my synchronized collections in Lightroom CC - I sometimes do in promptu presentations of some of my images, I would really like to be able to get all my images of say a specific butterfly to show the best of them to someone who asked - currently I have to remember in which collection and approximately where in that collection I may have one of these images.

The lack of these keyword functions currently is one of the biggest omissions in the whole of the Adobe Cloud...

288 Messages

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5.2K Points

Hallo Karl Günter, the missing keyword sync from LR Classic to LR Mobile is one issue, but a much bigger issue is that you cannot search existing keywords when there is no internet connection. Imagine you sit in a beer garden and want to show pictures and it is not possible. Or sitting in the airplane and want to search a picture, again, not possible. OK, the new advanced autodetect scenes need internet, but there are still normal keywords and descriptions. In addition of that, the preview of pictures has issues in offline mode as well. You see only a black preview for many pictures. As son the internet connection is back all these black previews appear immediately. LR Mobile is no longer usable in such situations. OK, Adobe is adding more an more features and I love to see that, but I need the offline functionality as well.
Let us hope the best
Peter

26 Messages

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872 Points

@Peter: It may be worth creating a new feature request for offline search to cover that scenario. There is another post regarding search capabilities, but it doesn't seem specific to the offline scenario.

288 Messages

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5.2K Points

Thank Jeremy,
do you see this offline search issue as well? You just need to switch on Airplane mode and try a search.

26 Messages

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872 Points

@Peter: I do, yes. 

288 Messages

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5.2K Points

Hi Jeremy, have posted a feature request for the search issue and a problem request for the black picture issue. Keep fingers crossed :-)

7 Messages

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520 Points

2 years ago

I too naively assumed that Keywords entered in Lightroom on my iPad would sync back to theClassic version on my Mac. Having done so for many hundreds of photos on my last trip I now find I have to do the work all over again. Frankly the split of Lightroom into various iterations is confusing and not helped by Adobe failing to make the limitation clear in anything easily accessible to the normal user. 

945 Messages

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16K Points

You haven’t been naive assuming the keywords should sync. Everything editable in LR should sync. And there isn’t even a warning text box!
There is absolutely no excuse for such a huge bug.
The “technical” explanations consisting of keywords type is totall bullshit.

5 Messages

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122 Points

2 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Lightroom: Keywords created in LR Classic do NOT sync with Lightroom CC.

keywords created in LR Classic do NOT sync with Lightroom CC

3 Messages

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242 Points

2 years ago

Please, Adobe, implement keyword sync between Classic and Mobile: this is a critical feature for searching and selecting images in Mobile. Sensei search is great, but it cannot cover abstract keywords that describe all sorts of non-visual aspects in images.

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

2 years ago

Sync is not the only critical missing feature. But case sensitive keyword is useless. List of keyword in CC should be implemented. Add keyword in multiple photos in iOS should be a  etc etc

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

4 Messages

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204 Points

2 years ago

This reply was created from a merged topic originally titled Please Conform Commenting and Keywords across Lightroom Classic and CC.

I need my clients to be able to add Comments and have the keywords they add in Lightroom CC computer version to sync with the hosted Lightroom Classic Catalog. 

Champion

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

As mentioned in the original topic, Adobe has indicated there were will be no more feature enhancements to sync with LR Classic, so in particular, they have no plans to sync keywords. But if enough people complain, maybe they'll change their mind before the next ice age.

However, comments do normally sync between LR CC and LR Classic, so something specific to your configuration is going wrong. I suggest posting a new thread in the user-to-user forum to get it sorted out: 
https://forums.adobe.com/community/lightroom/lightroom-classic-cc/content

29 Messages

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1.3K Points

Hi John,

I think you need to differentiate between files that are imported into Lightroom CC and then keyworded - those keywords do sync back AFAIK, keywords added in Lightroom CC to files from synchronized Lightroom Classic CC collections though do not propagate either way...

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

No, keywords which are added in Lightroom CC to photos imported in Lightroom CC do not sync back to Lightroom Classic either.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

Champion

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

Karl, you might be thinking of somewhat different special case: When a photo in LR Classic is first synced with LR CC, any keywords previously assigned in LR Classic get copied into LR CC, provided that the keywords had been written into the file's metadata (using the LR Classic command Metadata > Save Metadata To File or the option Catalog Settings > Automatically Write Changes Into XMP).

But in general, once a photo has been initially synced between LR CC and LR Classic, any subsequent changes to keywords in LR CC don't get synced to LR Classic, and vice versa.

29 Messages

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1.3K Points

That makes the break even worse - keywording is one of the things I really like to be able to do in Lightroom CC as is searching for images with a certain keyword to present them or select among similar images. For serious editing Lightroom CC is all but useless on mobile devices like an iPad for me...

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

provided that the keywords had been written into the file's metadata (using the LR Classic command Metadata > Save Metadata To File or the option Catalog Settings > Automatically Write Changes Into XMP).
and provided that you have not generated smart previews for those photos before saving metadata to file. This is because the sync process always tries to upload any existing smart preview rather than generate a new one, so if you generate them before saving metadata to file they won't have the keywords baked in. So it's a "special case" with numerous caveats.

I think many of us feel let down by Adobe's failure to implement some kind of mobile keywording that can be used with Classic.

16 Messages

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586 Points

Not syncing keywords is probably the most silly decision in Lightroom CC that Adobe has made. CC is perfect for taking you Classic Catalogue Pictures with you on the road on a smaller device, so that you can cull through photos (which works fine) and tag them (which is not possible at all if you want to continue in Classic later).
Please Adobe have mercy on everybody an sync keywords across these platforms! And if you decide to do so, please include the Sensei-Data as well (I recently found out that they are included in the Sync-Protocoll which can be downloaded in Lightroom Classic), so it should not be that difficult).

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

2 years ago

When I read those really interesting comment, I find crazy Adobe does not takes in account our requests. 
The most we use classic or LR, the most we discover missing feature.

I would like to know if it is deliberate or not. 

It make me thing we are paying a whole 24 bucks a month for a beta software. in fact we are paying the development of the software but our voice is not take in account,

Thats unfair from adobe.

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

From what I understand, it is deliberate for a technical reason. Lightroom Classic has hierarchical keywords, meaning you can have the same keyword appear in more than one hierarchy. Take 'Los Angeles' for example. Most people would only think about the city in California, but there are many cities with that name around the world. That is where syncing becomes a big mess. When the keyword 'Los Angeles' comes in, how is Lightroom to know which one it is? This is also why Lightroom CC does have keywords, but not hierarchical.

Of course it should be possible to find a solution for this, but apparently that took so much work that they decided not to do it. Furthermore, Lightroom Classic is not meant to be part of Lightroom CC in the first place. Its syncing capabilities are more or less left-overs from the time that Lightroom Mobile existed but Lightroom CC did not. I'm sure that now that Lightroom CC for the desktop exists, Adobe would rather terminate any syncing in Lightroom Classic than enhance it.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

The problem is because of a deficient web site (almost for human being),  we most of the time discover such limitation very often when the workflow is so much engaged it is complex to rewind.

And bye the way, why not let people how does not use hierarchical keyword full sync.

Thy way we could use the very expensive combo LR Classic + LR CC + 1TB to compensate the very weak LR CC which is near unusable alone to manage photo but edit

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

Sorry Uk is not my mother tongue, hope it will be understandable

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

945 Messages

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16K Points

Johan, it is a non issue... the could just decide to flatten the keywords if there is any compatility issue. At least just sync the strings, not taking into account the hierarchy.

Los Angeles could very easily be copied as ... just « Los Angeles ». People don’t ask more than that!

11 Messages

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260 Points

Or Adobe could simply keep the hierarchy by internally storing something like "City>Los Angeles".

You are able to export and import hierarchical keyword lists to files using LR CC with no issues but they say they are unable to do something similar via the internet?

Interesting reasoning...

5 Messages

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204 Points

There is also a point that you all miss here : Lr CC relies on AI to describe the contents of the pictures. IMHO, Adobe wants to put all the efforts in this area, and not cope anymore with classical - and let's be honest - outdated tasks like keywording.

29 Messages

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1.3K Points

Then Adobe needs to have a poll of what their users expect. I expect never to be able to use such an AI because I need to be precise in my keywords - I need to be able to find a "Bläuling" butterfly (meaning a group of butterflies that are predominantly blue) even though it is a butterfly of a suborder of that group that is metallic red...

5 Messages

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204 Points

Yes Karl, I understand your needs and you are perfectly right, even if I believe that AI will be able, in the near future, to identify this. 

175 Messages

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3.7K Points

Okay Gilles you are maybe right,
We are all missing this point, adobe relies on AI aspect. But how does really care? AI is maybe a plus we need. Not a must have.

Meanwhile Adobe tries to detect a cat in the picture, Adobe should let us use Classic (a faster one) to compensate CC, let us use keyword the way we wan to uset.

Is printing an outdated workflow?
Is offline searching an outdated workflow?
LR CC is not able to search a sting of offline. 

In fact I thing it is more than that : Without the ability to manage our photos with this old school workflow (I mean keyword) we will not be able to switch to an LR competitive solution.

If adobe want us to use Ai, not problem. 
But let us use keyword the way we want,.

Personnaly keyword goes far beyond a simple description but is part of my workflow.
For example, I need to find easily photos without keyword. Something LR CC is not able to do

One thing I'm sure: AI will not be able to detect technical things or administrative/legal process, for sure. Myself will be able.

So once again, we do not want somebody explain us are not working the way Lr is designed. We want to see LR works the way we need. We pay for that. And it is very expensive.

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

29 Messages

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1.3K Points

Gilles, I don’t think that any generic AI will ever be able to solve the more complicated issues. I have images of gendermixes (don’t know the correct english name for such a phenomenon) where an individual butterfly exhibits traits of both male and female forms but you only can tell if you correlate the species that are known to exist in that area with other information. It’s serious research to be able to keyword that image correctly. And don’t get me started on the orchid hybrids. Sometimes you are only able to identify the hybrid by knowing which species are adjacent, which insects pollinate said orchids, which flowering times are overlapping in the area (for example in more northern areas Orchis militaris and Orchis anthropophora have non overlapping flowering times, thus hybrids are highly unlikely to be created - just 700km further south the two species share flowering times and hybrids are plentiful. Only a highly specific AI would be able to determine the elder species - and that’s just a very narrow field.

IMHO no AI will be ever (at least in my hopefully not too short lifetime) able to replace the sort of keywording I need...

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16K Points

Guys!
AI or not, that’s not even the question. The fact is: keywords on one platform are not copied to another! It’s just nonsense...

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16K Points

Guys!
AI or not, that’s not even the question. The fact is: keywords on one platform are not copied to another! It’s just nonsense...

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3.7K Points

You are totally right.
So strange every time we are asking something we think is legit, somebody comes and tries to explain the inexplicable 

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5 Messages

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204 Points

The real fact is that Lr Classic and Lr CC are two different work environments, for different users, and you should understand it, as Adobe has always been totally clear with that. You are simply not supposed to use both programs.
Syncing complex keywords hierarchy is difficult, and Lr Classic is not up to that task. Just to understand, look at the many problems when you simply sync collections to the cloud : slow sync, stuck files, etc. I believe that Adobe tried to balance the user needs (and requests) and the technical risks, and this balance was not achievable.

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1K Points

The thing is they are so nearly there, they are snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

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1.3K Points

@gilles It's funy because the thing that would lock me in more than anything into the Adobe toolchain would be a seamless keyword facility between the cloud and desktop version of their DAM...

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3.7K Points

The real fact Gilles is
1) we have understand
2)it is not because we understand we are not allowed to complain.

It is unbelievable everything is synching perfectly, I have to admit this is a real performance and can understand how difficult it is to do, really.

It just seems the last step was not achieve for political reasons. By design as previously mentionned.

We too understand hierarchy in keyword add complexity to the complexity. I personally do not use this. My keywords are very specific (technical/legal. I'm not able to sync a full 2 way.
But keyword is just the tip of the iceberg.

It is ok,  Classic and CC are 2 different offer for different users an so on,

The real fact is :

Classic becomes unusable because too fat, too big, too laggy, too slow

CC is just a pre-alpha software with too much limitation to enter in a real production environnement.

Maybe we are not supposed to use both software BUT I've never see on there advert.

And if we use both it is not by nostalgia but because the switch is just not feasible because once again CC weakness.

We can share so much about those points... but let focus about the keyword sync.

In a strict technical terms, I can't understand why it is so complex to sync a keyword which can simply be embedded in the photo??? Everything is embedded and/or sync but the keyword.

What's the point? Adobe is kidding us. That's the real fact.

Adobe have to listen to our customer.

If customer want a real keyword management it is because users need it in CC.
If customer asks a real sync it is because Adobe is not able to provide an real keyword management in CC and we need to use Classic.
If customer ask a non case sensitive or a list of already keyword it is because it is far more efficient and logic.
You can't deny or forget you and adobe earn money thanks to your valued customers.

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3.7K Points

@ Karl, 
Ok it is your point of view. 
We (or I) just need keyword. Actually not possible with CC.

Image edition or development is really easy and strong. That what make me stay in the adobe ecosystem. 

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5 Messages

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204 Points

Olivier, don't get me wrong : I perfectly understand your needs and your concerns. I have no clue if this situation will change - I doubt - but I'm pretty sure that Lr CC will get autotag features one day, which will be a huge step forward. 
I think the problem we are all facing is that we are at a turning point and it is never easy.

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3.7K Points

You are right Gilles, 
I do really appreciate LR CC, this turning point is critical but mandatory
Maybe autotag will be efficient enough in some days, but I wish I can keep things in control and search offline. 

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1.3K Points

@gilles, as I explained autotagging is a total gimmick to me. For me it's vital to be able to search for keywords and change them when being offline and they need to synchronize to my office system - and the Lightroom CC cloud infrastructure (excluding the synchronized Lightroom Classic CC smart previews) is simply not ever going to cut the mustard. I couldn't even use it to manage the images of one day - because then my mobile data cap for the month would be hit within a few days, or sometimes even a few hours.

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16K Points

Autotag does not mean you can not add your own tags. I don't see why the two cold not exist in parallel. Let AI generate keywords, and us add our ours. The search function could only be better with this :) (even with a toggle for the AI keywords... 'cause you never know...)

Like you said, AI could recognize an orchid but certainly not a hybrid :)
And when you add a butterfly on it...

https://flic.kr/p/27sVwqC

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260 Points

I really don't think that this specific issue is a "mandatory" necessity

LR CC will not be a usable alternative for some of us as long as there's the requirement to upload everything via cloud/internet.

However, extending the workflow e.g. by being able to edit changes especially to meta information via cloud/mobile is a nice thing. They did it with a lot of data already and - from a technological perspective - there's no reason to omit keywording.

In addition, I concur with those people who already explained why AI cannot be a replacement for existing keywording. I regard auto-tagging the same way as LR Classic's face recognition: it's a handy thing to speed up my workflow but it needs supervision and correction (e.g. turned heads) and I will never be able to rely solely on its capabilites.

Also: I like and do use hierarchical keywords. Pity they didn't bother to add this proven feature as base system in LR CC. Again: it's not too hard to implement from a technical point of view and people who prefer flat lists are free to use them.

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204 Points

Agreed Antoine, we need to keep the possibility to add tags manually - which is the case in Lr CC, even the mobile and the web versions. Only autotag is missing.
However, I wouldn't bet about identifying or not an hybrid or a butterfly on it. We are not there yet, but it will be possible one day, an probably faster than we can thought.
As an example, Google Photos is able to recognize dog breeds and using their AI through the AnyVision plugin for Lr, it was able to identify and tag a Mercedes300 SL ;-)

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16K Points

Gilles, your right! My point was not to criticise AI, on the contrary. I'm lazy and I hate manual tagging, I really love auto tags. And the more accurate the are, the better :)

What I ment was: how good autotag might be, manual tags will always be needed.

And youre also right, AI will certainly do a "better" job than humans. Skin cancer detection is a good (yet very specific) example ;)

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@Gilles, sorry, nature is so diverse - I have photos of net winged insects that look to all intents and purposes like butterflies (in German their name also alludes to that fact, they are called "Schmetterlinghaft" which translates to "butterfly like"). I wouldn't trust any AI to correctly identify that. And I have photos of butterflies that look like hornets or wasps - including the translucent wings. I don't believe that any general purpose AI (and that's what we are talking about with regard to the keywording AI in Lightroom CC) will ever be able to cope with specialist fields of expertise.

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Happy to see some really constructive criticism about tag, tag management and autotag. Sometime I'm afraid to be alone with this sort of problem or workflow

To summarize, we want a real tag management ( for exemple a special menu same as date filter but with autofill function etc) in conjunction with autotag.
To fulfill the request smart folder based on Manuel tag would be a must :)))))

We do not want just autotag and a poor tag management (No autofill, no search offline etc etc) just because we are part of another audience. 

Is someone (Gilles in instance :) ) can forward our wishes in Adobe dev' team ?

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

> Is someone (Gilles in instance :) ) can forward our wishes in Adobe dev' team ?

They read everything. Whether it'll change their minds of the direction they've decided to take which each app is more debatable. But they are reading.

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16K Points

A roadmap is even too much to ask, so I don't excpect any change of mindset, at least as long as the cash is flowing. Is it aslo a deliberate decision NOT to tell what the plans are ("we know it better") or does it mean there is no roadmap at all (which I strongly doubt!) ?
I don't want to be of bad omen, but if/when a competitor comes out with a comparable product, many people will grab for popcorn and watch :)

Champion

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20.2K Points

Antoine,
Like most users in this forum you think that answering your questions or not is only the result of a marketing (business) choice.
Did you know that it's legal obligation for big companies under the rules of the Stock Exchange market not to give misleading information to shareholders? Suppose you are woking for one such company and responsible for answering publicly to the customers: I bet you'll be severely trained about what you are allowed to say or not. It's even true for people outside Adobe which can get pieces of information under NDA (non-disclosure agreement).
There are hundreds of posts here and in other Adobe forums to confirm that it's useless to ask precisely when the ACR version for your newly bought DSLR raw version will be ready. You have to wait until it's really ready.

Now, betwen us, we do know that, as we say in French:
"Un train peut en cacher un autre"
"Inutile de jouer la mouche du coche."
"Plus un singe monte au cocotier..."
Just joking, nothing personal. In this forum it's important to add your opinion and vote for useful suggestions; more users should do it. Don't you feel that some users in this forum have a tendency to use it as their personal blog?

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1.3K Points

Antonine, I think you should create your own thread where you can discuss development policy to your heart's content. This one IMHO should stay on track of the single issue of keywords not synchronizing!

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16K Points

Michel, I totally understand the legal obligations. But I'm not convinced a roadmap cannot be communicated for those reasons. Many camera manufacturers, for example, communicate on their lens roadmap. How is that different? Why could a software company nota roadmap?

Karl, as there is no other explanation as "this is technically impossible" or "this is by design"; don't blame us for speculation about reason behind those explanations.

Furthermore, maybe the number of replies to this thread will change the "answered" status of this thread.

Champion

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102.6K Points

> Furthermore, maybe the number of replies to this thread will change the "answered" status of this thread.

It started out as a question, which was answered. However I have changed it to a feature request, just on the vaguest of off chances that thousands of votes might change Adobe's decision. 

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20.2K Points

Antoine,
The general roadmap is disclosed in official statements that everybody can read and comment. My quote about "a train possibly hiding another"means that legal obligations may be handy to hide marketing preferences or decisions...
I agree with Karl Günter that it would be better to discuss the matter in another discussion. However, your question is not only why Adobe does not communicate better, it's about the future of the CC and Classic versions and a critical issue in the present stage: sharing keywords.
To be blunt, Adobe is not hiding anything. They are ready to change direction depending on many factors, including the ability of their teams to solve the keywords aspect. The roadmap probably has several options. Nobody will comment about this prematurely, especially in this technical forum.

If we stay on the keywords topic, I am very interested even though I don't user either LR version (only Elements) for my personal needs, Adobe gives me the suscription only to help Elements users to compare and choose the best solution. Today, there is no possible direct connection between Elements and Photoshop CC. You need to convert catalogs via the Classic version. You can't sync your catalogs, you can't use PSE as an external editor. The 1TB subscription offer for CC would seem interesting, but syncing and organizing features of the organizer are missing.

What is striking is that the current version of the organizer already offers user friendly and advanced features both in text search or visual recognition. You can create a visual multicriteria search combining keywords, people, places, albums, substrings in captions and much more. Just like a Google search. And its new smart tagging to search by any work like 'tree', 'automn', 'guitar'... those are features people are expecting to be still faster within a Cloud service than locally in a 'consumer grade' app like PSE.

My personal opinion is that the final course followed by Adobe will highly depend on the ability to solve the technical keywords syncing issues discussed here. They may have a 'Plan B'.

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1.3K Points

Come on Adobe, it can't be that hard to get the keywords to synchronize! Yet another update and no show!

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Thanks for insisting, Karl! Maybe one day... ;-)
If I have'nt switched to darktable, On1 or DxO before :) ;-)

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3.7K Points

2 years ago

Hi Rikk thanks for reply.

I understand (too late because it is obvious only after switching but understood)

That is the problem. All is said in one sentence.
2 audiances. But why??
We need cloud. Ok you will have to loose all others functionality.
Ok i want functionality. Ok you will not have the cloud because we think you are part of the other audience.

But WHY?
I need to switch beewten the 2 software because on classic I can easily sort photo without tag or gps data. And I can create smart folder with tag etc etc.
This is MY WOKFLOw

Why an another audience how needs cloud should not be able to simply sort photo without tag?
Can you explain why it is an another audience? No you can’t.

Why because I want a full cloud solution I’m not able to print? You can’t.
I don’t even think about contact sheet I do need.
Of one day we can print it will be explain,1) it is to expensive /complex to implement 2) I’m not in the good audience and people which use cloud do not need such a feature or not understand Lr.

About tag sync:
I have not hierarchical tag in claissic. Do not need.
I have 25 (about) tag label and because it is. It hierarchical it should be simply sync. Hope it will be.

All this is very sad.

5mn reading this help content show clearly adobe is killing itself.

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

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1.3K Points

2 years ago

Let me explain why the failure to carry over keywords in the synchronisation is a big problem for me! I am a nature photographer, often hiking many miles to remote locations to photograph rare orchids. There usually (the area being nature reserves) is no or very bad cell coverage. Often I am meeting up with fellow orchidophiles or meet groups in the field - several times I have had chanche meetings with reknown experts. On such meetings you start exchanging information about locations and often show pictures of recent or not so recent discoveries, usually showing photos because they help. Several times I had made false determinations - no „Sensei AI“ will be able to distinguish an Ophrys aymonii x aranifera hybrid from an Ophrys insectifera x aranifera hybrid but the experts often can and will correct the mistakes - so I need to update the keywords on the falsely identified orchids. And there I am, I can open up a paper notebook, write down the image identification (name, date, time) and make a note of the correct identification so that weeks later when I return to my office PC I can go through those notes - just because Lightroom CC can‘t update the keywords of images synchronized from Lightroom Classic CC collections. Very very stupid!

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520 Points

Karl. I have found that information recorded in the “Title” and the “Caption” fields do sync. You may find this to be a work around although I agree it would help if the keywords did also sync.

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454 Points

2 years ago

The best yet ridiculous workaround I've found is to do all my editing and metadata in Lightroom Classic "CC," add the name of the folder in Lr as "title" metadata, export as jpgs, and import to Photos on a Mac, which *does* sync keywords with iCloud, and then... the Apple Photos app on an iOS device can actually do a decent search with that!

That plan is obviously not useful for many reasons, especially with being able to find recent photos I've spent time tagging from a desktop while mobile. There is no ability to do the reverse with Lightroom CC (which would also be how any normal user would expect it to work), and no reason for pros to use Lightroom as a one-and-only tool if such a fundamental capability we rely on simply doesn't work.

This is a glaring problem with the Lightroom workflow Adobe. We'd love to use your mobile app but this method of not using it is what it's come down to in the meantime! Please address this so we can move forward together with CC as an actual professional tool.

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5.2K Messages

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93.2K Points

2 years ago

I investigated writing a plugin that would sync keywords from LR CC back to LR Classic. Unfortunately, the Creative SDK (Software Development Kit) provides access to all the other metadata fields -- title, caption, capture date, flag, and rating -- but, inexplicably, not keywords!  

If it provided access to keywords, it would be straightforward to implement a plugin that synced from CC to Classic, handling the mapping from flat back to hierarchical keywords nearly seamlessly.  Adding keywords to the Creative SDK would only take a few hours on the part of Adobe engineering.  So please add your vote and constructive opinion to this bug report: 
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/creative-sdk-provide-access-to-lightroom-cc-k...

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3.7K Points

What I read here is crazy after 11 months! I think it should be easy to flatten the hierarchy to allow sync
I should be easy for every developer, no?

For example
"master keyword" and "sub keyword" become "master keyword.sub keyword"

For example _ 
Landscape/mountain
Landscape/river
Lanscape/forest in Classic become 3 flatten keyword in CC during sync :
Landscape.mountain
Landscape.river
Lanscape.forest

Resulting in a full flaten syncable keywording.
So Adobe will not need to implement so much functionality in CC and we will live with the 2 software to composate CC desktop wekness
No?

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

945 Messages

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16K Points

Of course! Stating it's a technical issue is taking people for idiots. Insulting! How to do it best? I don't know, it's not my business. But I do know it is not technically impossible or even that difficult.

The sad part is, it is a political / marketing / business / ... decision.

The even sadder part is: LR classic is probably going to die slowly to force people to switch to a full cloud based app.

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436 Points

I agree. But this could be the "one too much" mischief from Adobe against customers ans push them to go and watch elsewhere. Darktable ?...

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16K Points

To be honest, the only thing that keeps me with LR right now are:
1) Too lazy struggle with a switch to another platform (darktable looks fabulous, though!)
2) Sync between LR mobile and desktop

Number one can easily be solved. And If the next versions of LR is not a big improvement (speed, functions, sync, ...) my laziness will decrease quite quickly. Number two could also easily be solved

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3.7K Points

Obviously I'm sure it is not limited by design (as declared) but to be sure keywording will not be use for users to exit the adobe ecosystem.
What I mean adobe is turning LR from desktop to full cloud. As a result they will justify the price because of cloud cost and not because of functionality.

And without full keyword management (which is a total open management system usable by every software or the finder/explorer) we will not be able to switch to an another system/ecosystem

So they will ensure a permanent revenue.

I don't know darktable, maybe I will have to give a try.
Or maybe the file management of Luminar? 

But actually LR CC is near unusable to manage / catalog photos but develop photos

Go for C1, succeed your cloud by yourself 

945 Messages

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16K Points

"but to be sure keywording will not be use for users to exit the adobe ecosystem."
--> so it is by design, no?

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3.7K Points

You're right!
I've forget the word "only" or something like this. I don't know hoe to edit my words

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175 Messages

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3.7K Points

The correct words I mean are : "Obviously I'm sure it is limited by design (as declared) to be sure keywording will not be use for users to exit the adobe ecosystem."
This is MHO, maybe I'm wrong (I hope)

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1K Points

It certainly does feel like Adobe are going out of their way to make the experience of using CC Classic and CC together as bad as possible.

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1K Points

It certainly does feel like Adobe are going out of their way to make the experience of using CC Classic and CC together as bad as possible.

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16K Points

I don't think it is on purpose, but what's obvious is that cloud/sync integreation on the working LR (aka classic) is still in beta stage and won't evolve anymore. Just the bare minimum to show "no, classic is not discontinued". Even though it seems to be... Buisiness decision. And it is understandable that the integration of new technologies (AI, sync, cloud, ...) in a dynosaure (LR classic...) is quite difficult without rewriting everything...

--> So why not rewrite everything and ensure the users are more trapped whitin the system in order secure recurrent revenues? This all makes sense and is understandable!

However, the new LR is also still in beta, does not respond the photographer's need (it's designed as a mobile app) and is obviously designed to secure the recurrent revenue, BEFORE delivering a decent software.
If the new LR were a great software, integrating all the working concepts of classic, whit additional features of sync, AI, web integration and all this... why not ? But it's not! It has too many flaws and omissions.

Now LR is divided in two, unfinished softwares:
1) Classic, which I belive a lot of people will still be using because it corresponds best to the photographer's need, which is SLOW and on which the sync integration is POOR (/bad/horrible).

2) The newly written LR which is not finished yet, which does not respond to the photographer's need and which first goal seems to be to 'trap' the user's in the 'cloud' ecosystem in order to make it as difficult as possible to switch to another software.

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1.3K Points

@Antonine, I think it's not helpful if you start diverting the attention away from the issue at hand and instead go to the LR is shit argument... A software never is finished - it only is ever finished when it's development is stopped and it's discontinued!

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@Karl, I'm not trying to divert the attention... I'm trying to find a rational explanation for the many issues LR is suffering from, starting from this one. This topic has been created 11 months ago, is maybe one with the most "me toos" or at least the most dabated one, and is parked as "answered".

I'd love you to prove me wrong, really... but except trying to understand WHY Adobe behaves like this, I have no other idea for being helpfull as reporting bugs and stating my -personal- observations of the evolutions (or lack of, in certain cases).

Maybe other poeple will read this and think the same, mabe not. Maybe Adobe will read this and react, mabe not. At least I do my part: report the bugs and try to give the devs the tools the LR we are -in the end- paying for. Just saying...

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326 Points

I agree with you all, not synchronizing keywords between LR CC mobile and LR Classic neglects in my humble opinion the very core functionality of LR. I am not a happy customer right now.

My LR (classic) library contains now every single photo I shot in the last 40+ years. For me there will never be a reason to transfer this huge amount of data into the cloud simply because I don’t need to access it very often.

But for actual projects saving the photos in the cloud and having access to the them from a variety of devices is an important feature. With Apples new iPad Pro it would be possible to travel light, which is getting more important every day.

But please ADOBE make it possible, that added keywords are synchronized to LR classic afterwards. I do know that the keyword architecture is different between LR Classic and LR CC. I would even understand if it would be difficult to synchronize the keywords from LR Classic to LR CC. But the other way round must be possible!

Please make it at least possible to synchronize keywords from LR CC (mobile) to LR Classic! This would be at least a step into the right direction.

And just to let you know: apart from these two mentioned functions I am a very happy customer for many years now.

Hubertus Lemke

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93.2K Points

Hubertus, be sure to vote for this feature request too: 
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/creative-sdk-provide-access-to-lightroom-cc-k...

With just a few hours of engineering, Adobe could enable plugins to sync keywords. (Of course, it would be better if Adobe built that in, but so far they've said explicitly they won't be adding new features to sync between LR Classic and CC.)