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118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Sat, Sep 21, 2019 6:56 AM

Not a problem

Lightroom changes capture date when exporting a file to jpeg from Sony raw ARW or even from an original JPEG?

Why does Lightroom change capture date when exporting a file to jpeg from Sony raw ARW or even from an original JPEG?

Responses

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

a year ago

Lightroom does not do that, but the creation date of the exported file will obviously be today, because that is the date that this file was first created. The capture date will remain as it was however.


Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

a year ago

As Above that simply does NOT happen. You are looking at the FILE CREATION date, Not the Image Capture Date and Time.

799 Messages

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11.5K Points

a year ago

How about the entry directly above John’s lower arrow, “Date and time of original data generation”? Is that not another name for Capture Date?

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

Yes, and as you can see, this date was not changed when I exported the image today.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

John, First of all your screen shot is obviously of an XMP reader NOT Lightroom so it is difficult for me to extrapolate the dates to what I see in Lightroom.

Secondly, as Carlos mentioned, the date above your lower arrow APPEARS to be "original" creation date? So does that mean the top arrow is the date you exported the file? What you show here (assuming the field you point to at bottom is the same as original capture date in Lightroom) does indicate the creation date didn't change for this ONE file but I repeat this ONE file. One example is not a preponderance of evidence nor as I said above do the fields you point to in this XMP reader necessarily coincide with the date fields in question in Lightroom. If you can show me that the date fields you point to do in fact correlate to the fields in question in Lightroom then I would be inclined to agree with you.

Regards,
GEGJr
P.S. You obviously use a MAC machine I use Windows. So I would not be surprised if Lightroom for MAC and Windows interpret fields differently. The fact that I have repeatedly asked Adobe about this issue and have never been able to get any kind of definitive response and that I'm not the only person who has complained about it tells me Adobe cannot prove Lightroom doesn't alter the creation date under certain circumstances. Lightroom has a long history of issues with time stamps generated by some cameras.

Champion

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752 Messages

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13.3K Points

"Preponderance of evidence". How many files would you like John to test. Your original one line statement provided zero examples.  I just tried this on a downloaded ARW file and the Capture date was preserved in the JPG and shown in Lr.  

Champion

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483 Messages

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8.9K Points

Well, I use both Mac and Windows, and can confirm that Lightroom behaves the same using either. However, since you seem to be doubtful about Johan's evidence (Johan, not John), I'll present some of my own from my Windows system. Here is the "EXIF" view of the LR Metadata panel for a raw file shot earlier this year:



I exported this file as a Jpeg, adding it back into the catalog, using the "All Metadata" option in the Metadata box in the Export dialog. Here's the result:



As you can see, the capture date (the Date Time Original) is exactly the same, as expected. "Date Time", which is the file creation date, not the image capture date, shows today's date, also as expected.

Now, if during export you had "Copyright Only" as the option in the Metadata section of the Export dialog, a different result is obtained. With that option set, none of the various dates in the EXIF portion of the original image are included in the exported file. So, unsurprisingly, the Metadata panel for the exported file looks like this:



So, no date information in the EXIF section, as expected. There is one quirk, however, and that is if using the "Default" view in the Metadata panel to view that last file. The result looks like this:



Here you can see that in this one circumstance of an image having no dates in the EXIF section of the file header, Lightroom erroneously displays the file creation date as "Capture Date" (as there is no other actual date available to use). However, that's an internal LR display issue only, caused by the file having no valid capture date/time recorded in the exported file. It certainly doesn't equate to the assertion that "Lightroom changes the capture time during export".

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

In this you are correct. And since this is the "default" metadata view, this is the view I and probably many others use to determine if their images have the correct capture date and time. So this is what triggers us that a change needs to be made in the metadata capture time and if you go to metadata>edit capture time, it is the erroneous capture date found in the default metadata view you'll see. See image.

Champion

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174 Messages

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3.9K Points

a year ago

I have just exported a JPEG copy of a raw file and  imported this JPEG into LR, where I have viewed the capture date using the Metadata panel (Default view) in the Library module. It shows the same capture date as the original raw file.  @GEGJr, can you show us an example of where this doesn't happen - show the Metadata panel for the original and for the JPEG?

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Hi Laura,

I apologize for the rant earlier but In my older years (I'm 68 years young) I get frustrated when people try to overtly accuse me of incompetence or that I have an agenda that would cause me to outright tell lie. I would never intentionally misrepresent an issue just to prove a point. I even get more frustrated when someone indicates they are somehow superior.

I am including screen shots of an example. I won't waste time trying to explain what you will see it should be self-explanatory. Except to say you will note this is an older file that was shot with my now defunct Minolta Maxxum 7D camera. I am looking to see if I can find something newer but I haven't done much if any exporting in recent years because my new cameras Sony A99II and A77II create big files and I am old school and believe in getting it right in camera so I usually shoot jpeg instead of raw. Besides, since all the changes in LRC in last couple of years I am not sure I can duplicate the exact same conditions under which this image was exported. All that said, I have several of these older examples most shot with my older Minolta 7D which no longer works and Sony A99I which I sold.

Anyway, here is an example of what I'm talking about. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to look at it.

Best Regards and sincere apologies,
GEGJr
I hope you can read these. Please note that in the second image (JPG) that only did the date time original get changed but it went backward to 09/26/2012 from 09/29/2012 and capture time changed. I don't understand this at all.


Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

George, can you try the same export/import process with Lightroom Classic 8.4 (the current version) please? In your highlighted screenshots, it's showing that second file was created Lightroom 4.2, and since that was 7 years ago, there's little point us trying to figure out what happened there.

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

I think Victoria hit the nail on the head. Was there a bug in Lightroom 4 that could cause this? Perhaps, but if there was, then we have clearly shown you that this bug has been fixed in the meantime...

BTW, my upper arrow shows the date and time I exported the jpeg. You may have noticed that this was (almost, I needed some time to type it) the same date and time as my reply to you. The lower arrow shows the date and time the original image was shot, i.e. the capture date/time.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

See my reply below. I think what I posted is the problem the OP is having.

Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

I don't think so because he posted screenshots that show he is looking at the metadata panel. He does have a strange difference between date/time original and date/time digitized for the jpeg.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

My screen shot posted below shows the Capture Date (and Time) in the header of the thumbnails. Outlined in red
I couldn't show all 6 images with corresponding dates and time any other way and that is my normal setting for the thumbnails header.
If you look at the original, labeled, and the 3 to the right of it (-5.jpg, -4.jpg, -3.jpg) show the correct Capture time. The other 2, with TEXT on the images, shows yesterdays date and the time they were exported. Those 2 were exported with the Metadata option set to Copyright Only and Copyright and Contact Info only. A Simple slip up in the Export dialog will give you what the OP is seeing.

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

The reference to the Software used was when those images were imported and or when they were developed. Even if they were exported with LR 4.x that same setting in the export dialog would cause the original capture date to be stripped and be replaced by the File Creation date and time.

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

From looking at the complete discussion the OP has not posted any screen shots that I can see. Jim Wilde has post several, in one reply, and you posted one in your first reply but none from the OP.

124 Messages

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2.8K Points

@Just Shot me: Since all the EXIF data is still present in the 2nd screenshot that would imply that it was not exported with the metadata removed --copyright only.?

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

We haven't heard back from the OP and I doubt we will. Jim Wilde point out what I am seeing, using Copyright only and copyright and contact info only, as the cause of the OP's findings. Having been proven incorrect they will probably just vanish into the night.
they also had another post about "Why LR doesn't read edits from other programs" and that it should.
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/why-doesnt-lightroom-move-modd-lr-txt-files-with-images-and-video

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

No it is the 3rd screen shot, of Jim Wilde, that show Copyright only. The date and time has been stripped out.

124 Messages

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2.8K Points

Click 'view previous' several times in this same section of the thread and you see the OP's posts with yellow highlighted dates from 11hrs ago

124 Messages

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2.8K Points

Click 'view previous' several times in this same section of the thread and you see the OP's posts with yellow highlighted dates from 11hrs ago

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Bruce,
Just Shot Me is only interested in proving his or hers point of view. He or she is trying their best to discredit me and invalidate my assertion. As the example I posted clearly shows there is NO WAY I exported with Copyright Only or Copyright & info only and there is no way that I am aware that I can prove what my export window looked like at the time of the original export except for you to look at the metadata panels of the screenshots I submitted. Of course Just Shot Me is disputing I even submitted any screenshots . But what else would you expect?

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Bruce,
Just Shot Me is only interested in proving his or hers point of view. He or she is trying their best to discredit me and invalidate my assertion. As the example I posted clearly shows there is NO WAY I exported with Copyright Only or Copyright & info only and there is no way that I am aware that I can prove what my export window looked like at the time of the original export except for you to look at the metadata panels of the screenshots I submitted. Of course Just Shot Me is disputing I even submitted any screenshots . But what else would you expect?

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Hey Just Shot Me, are you stalking my post? Are you really trying to cyberbully me? What's this about "We haven't heard back from the OP and I doubt we will."? How dare you try to discredit me! Si what if I decided it wasn't worth my time and didn't post back? That doesn't make me wrong. I'm reporting you to Adobe.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Laura, I disagree that there is little point in pursuing erroneous information supplied by older versions of LR. Furthermore, Jim Wilde has demonstrated, albeit nonconclusively, that LR erroneously supplies an incorrect original date and time if an image was exported with Copyright only or Copyright & Contact Info Only in the Export dialogue window. Which I still disagree is an improper way for LR to handle the original image date. The date and time original should never change irregardless of what information is allowed to display in an exported image. Additionally, LR should fully explain what the ramifications of those settings are in the export dialogue window.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Victoria I did as you asked and as you, and frankly I, expected the dates are all as they should be. So I won't bother uploading. However, as I said above I disagree that it is not worth pursuing the incorrect data populated by LR in prior versions as it represents a significant investment in users time to find and correct those erroneous entries. Not to mention a complete misrepresentation of data.

Additionally, in the jpeg example I uploaded why isn't the Date Digitized as seen on the Exif and IPTC panel used for the Captured Date and Time in the Default Metadata panel instead of the Date Time Original found on the Exif and IPTC panel which you will note is an earlier date than the actual original Capture Date and Time? Confusing isn't it? 

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

@robert_somrak, Please don't get snippy with me. He (John) doesn't have to provide any. He did it on his on I simply stated my opinion.
@Laura_Shoe, All I know is that I have many files where the capture date was changed by Lightroom after importing them in directly from the card and older files that had been imported by other apps. And files that were processed were edited by Photoshop or Portrait Pro and converted into psp or jpg or tiff and when they came back into Lightroom have different capture dates.
You people don't have an open mind because you have vested interest in making sure Adobe doesn't get the blame for any shortcomings in its software. You are after all advocates for Adobe.

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

Where exactly are you viewing these date changes?
Please show us screen shots of what you are seeing. 
Also what are your Export settings? Specifically the Metadata setting? Show us a screen shot of the export dialog showing all your setting but as above specifically the Metadata section.
If you are using Copyright only or Copyright & Contact Info only the Date/Time Captured will reflect the File Creation Date.
As myself and others have stated LR does not do this on it's own. It takes User input, User Error, to strip away that info and replace it with a new date and time.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

What? You have got to be kidding me!! Now you want to blame the users for something that should not be altered under any circumstance or at the very least for something that should be fully documented by Adobe when exporting images. It should be fully explained as to what circumstances will cause the original capture date to be altered when exporting images. Furthermore, please help me and others understand why using or not using "Copyright only or Copyright & Contact Info only " would cause the capture date to be changed? That is ridiculous if true.
P.S. BTW I always keep export metadata set to "all metadata" which I believe is the default.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

Hello Victoria Brampton

As I said in my initial post and in my last post with the examples. My issues with the capture date in LR go back to the beginning. I said that I haven't been exporting images in last couple of years or more because I have not been shooting raw and the need doesn't exist. In addition I've been self printing for the most part so exporting hasn't been necessary as I typically print from within Lightroom. However, I also said I have lots of examples from around the time of the sample I posted because at that time I was doing lots of exporting.

So, while it may be true the problem doesn't exist anymore since LR went to the cloud it really doesn't help with fixing the damage that was already done. Just as importantly I remember bringing this issue up back then, with LR versions 4, 5 etc and it was completely ignored. Now, this communities elitist group of "self appointed experts" are trying to minimize my complaint because they say, it may have happened then but it's not happening now. That's like saying well we used to pay women less than their male peers but we don't now so it's ok. Or, yes you were discriminated against but we don't do it anymore so we don't need to repair the damage done. It's all poppycock. You all have a responsibility to give every report of malfunction the benefit of belief until proven wrong.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

What happened to the examples I posted with the metadata panel?
Who deleted them? I am uploading again for Just shot men's benefit.


Champion

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3.1K Messages

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56.1K Points

Nobody deleted them. They are still there. Somehow not everybody sees them, apparently.

Johan W. Elzenga,

http://www.johanfoto.com

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Apparenlty!

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

a year ago

GEGJr, no one is trying to discredit you, cyberbully you, accuse you of incompetence, accuse you of lying, pretend that Lightroom's perfect, and no one's deleting your images (they're still there in your reply to Laura). Things can be misunderstood more easily in the written word, without seeing facial expressions, tone of voice, and even knowing what else is going on in the life of the people you're talking to. 

Everyone is trying to theorize about what might have happened 7 years ago, but the problem is, it's 7 years ago.

That metadata was obviously stripped during export, or by other software, or during import of the exported file. It's certainly possible that it was a bug in Lightroom 4.2 that was later fixed, although I can't find any such bug report. It's also possible that some settings were selected in the export dialog without realizing it, or that a metadata preset with the capture time checked but blank was applied during import or even later (which I suspect is more likely than stripping on export, since other metadata is still there). The fact there's differing dates also suggests that Edit Capture Time may have been used at some time, but it's 7 years ago, so remembering exactly what was done to these files is not possible.

> please help me and others understand why using or not using "Copyright only or Copyright & Contact Info only " would cause the capture date to be changed?

Choosing to export with Copyright only or Copyright and Contact Info only does exactly what it says in the name. It strips all metadata with the exception of the specified metadata. It's not causing a capture date to change, it's not including a capture date at all. Then, when you import photo back into Lightroom with no dates, Lightroom's having to take its best guess based on the file creation dates instead.

> I disagree that it is not worth pursuing the incorrect data populated by LR in prior versions as it represents a significant investment in users time to find and correct those erroneous entries.

> trying to minimize my complaint because they say, it may have happened then but it's not happening now

So what would you like to happen? It's certainly possible that there was a bug 7 years ago, but since it's not happening now, if a bug existed, it was fixed. So that means there's not a bug here that the engineers can fix.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

What I would've liked was that Adobe didn't ignore my issue back 7 years ago when I and others complained about it then. What I like now is what you did in response and that is offer a possible solution to fix the hundreds of files I have, not just MRW by the way but also Olympus raw files as I was also shooting Olympus C5050 at that time. I will try to find the program you have suggested because trying to fix them one by one is out of the question.

By the way, I'm sure you know that when exporting from LR there is option to not only export to the same location as the original but also include the export to catalog. I bring this up because when asked me to do a new export you explained how after you did the export you added the resulting file to the catalog.

As for "no one is trying to discredit you, cyberbully you, accuse you of incompetence, accuse you of lying, pretend that Lightroom's perfect, and no one's deleting your images (they're still there in your reply to Laura). Things can be misunderstood more easily in the written word, without seeing facial expressions, tone of voice, and even knowing what else is going on in the life of the people you're talking to."
I agree, you can't know what's going on in someone else's life such as my wife and caring for elderly parents who are not doing well. We are not the only people who have that circumstance. But you cannot attest to the motives of others. I never accused you trying to discredit or bully me. I did accuse "Just Shot Me" and I stand by my accusation. He not only made it seem like I didn't know what I was talking about but he tried to solicit the response of others in his proof that I didn't know what I was talking about. He told someone else in the stream that I hadn't posted any images and that gentleman told him how to go back and see what I had posted in response to your request. Then, he even mentioned another post of mine where I was asking about why Lightroom doesn't move modd and txt files when moving the corresponding picture files (in fact, sometimes it "LR" doesn't even move the XMP files). Why did he have to bring that post into this conversation if not to try to discredit me? Please don't try to make excuses for or explain the motives of others or disqualify how someone makes me feel. I am 68 years young and I certainly know when someone is trying to belittle me. As a person of color I know the signs and I know how it feels.

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

Obviously we can't turn back the clock by 7 years, but if you have a link to when you were complaining 7 years ago, I'd be very happy to read that thread.

I checked Syncomatic after I posted, and edited my reply as it doesn't transfer capture times, although John may be able to update it in order to do so. It may be possible to use LR/Transporter to write the correct capture times out to a CSV file and then import them that way, however I haven't tested that theory.

The one thing I don't understand is, if you were aware of the issue 7 years ago, why didn't you correct the dates then, while it would have been so much easier to do so. And if it hasn't mattered for 7 years, is it really worth wasting your time on it now?

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

I’ve had a brainwave. Actually, Jim Wilde gets the credit for triggering it. While Syncomatic doesn’t appear to be able to sync capture times between photos, it can sync other edits. So how about re-exporting the photos from the originals (with the correct dates) and then using Syncomatic to sync the new edits (crop etc.) across to the newly exported photos. Then you can delete the ones with the wrong dates.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Why I didn't correct them 7 years ago? 1. Because I wasn't aware of the extent of the issue and exactly what images were affected. 2. I wasn't all that good with Lightroom back then, and still not, but don't believe anyone was that good use Lightroom back then as it was still a relatively new platform. 3. I was more intent on getting the work done and it never dawned on me to even look at the dates. I just ASS-umed they were ok. I was coming from the film world and new to the whole digital thing. Up to then I had kept dates by hand by writing on the slide margin or on the negative sleeve that held the negative. DAM digital asset management wasn't even part of my vocabulary. I was still scanning files or importing from CDs received from a lab after developing.

What I don't understand is why is that is even a question? How old are you? I am 68 almost 69. I would think everything I mentioned above is obvious? You all still keep trying to point the finger to me as if it is my fault Lightroom had issues or that I wasn't smart enough to fix it then. I don't get the line of questioning.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

I already started re-exporting, if that's a word, and deleting the previously exported files with bad dates as I have time and as I find them. However, I am sure there are many that I probably don't have the original file for. As I said in my previous reply to this message I wasn't all that great at this Digital Asset Management think back then. Heck, I was still using other programs to review and import digital files onto my computer. I didn't as a lot others didn't realize then that everything should be done from and in Lightroom and many of us didn't even really know what EXIF and IPTC was for what all the cameras kept. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, we were still in the film state of mind.

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

GEGJr, I'm sorry, but if you're going to take everything anyone says as an insult, I don't think we can help you any further. Whether you believe it or not, practically every post in this thread has been an attempt to figure out what could have happened in order to find a workable solution for you.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

First, I explained why it didn't get fixed 7 years ago and I have looked for the post from 7 years ago but the community help forums have changed so much I can't find my exact post where I talked about the date issues in Lightroom but see this link https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

No need to be sorry. It's ok if you and others don't care to acknowledge your attitudes. It's typical for those that like to bully and belittle others to blame it on the person they've bullied or insulted. I've been around long enough to understand and believe me, they've been subtle but insults nevertheless. After all, I am a 68 year old person of color so I've heard it all.

Champion

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5.8K Messages

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102.6K Points

GEGJr, I can't speak for anyone else, but as far as my own comments are concerned, you're reading an attitude that simply doesn't exist. That can happen more easily with the written word, and if we were having this conversation face to face, there would be no question.

Thank you for the link. You're absolutely right that Lightroom has had issues with dates over the years; that was never in question. These issues primarily affect videos, but can also affect photos that are missing dates, and occasionally time zones too. In your case, the issue was how the photos had come to have missing dates in the first place, and whether it's still possible to get into that state today.

We've made a couple of suggestions of ways you can fix the photos that do have the wrong dates, regardless of whether the cause was a bug or human error, and if it was a bug, we appear to have agreed that it's fixed in the current version. The only factor left in question at this point is whether it's actually worth you spending the time to fix it, if it hasn't been important enough to fix for this long. Only you can answer that question.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

Agreed.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

BTW, I had session with Adobe LR "Expert" and he acknowledged that previous versions of LR had date is-sues not to when dates are missing.

And you right, as long as I have originals it is not worth effort to fix the exports. However, the real problem comes in when the originals are not raw files but are jpeg and were first imported to storage location via another program and later added to LR catalog. Unfortunately I discovered by accident, in the beginning of digital, I wasn't aware of discrepancies and differences in the way individual apps handled dates and metadata in general. My fault? Well I guess some here would say so but I say not because, and it's largely academic I know, when digital age begin the average photographer including many professionals didn't understand or even pay attention to metadata. I for one assumed there were standards that image browsers and DAM systems adhered to. Myself, being in the Quality Assurance business and being involved in making sure the companies I worked for, a major financial company and then a major pharmaceutical and medical device manufacturer, adhered to established ISO standards and FDA regulations. I assumed the photography industry adhered to a set of standards, too. My BAD!

582 Messages

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9.1K Points

a year ago

Your title states ARW files but you show MRW files. Maybe that is part of the problem? Those files haven't properly written the Capture date to the EXIF?
This is my last post to this thread.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

okay so I misspoke. I forgot that the old Minolta raw files were MRW not ARW. I don't really think the issue was caused by the extension of the raw file. After all at the time Lightroom was fully implemented for the MRW extension.

I certainly hope so and I will thank you for not responding to any other of my posts.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

So how do I close this post?

799 Messages

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11.5K Points

a year ago

You just stop replying.

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

Thanks

118 Messages

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1.5K Points

a year ago

I have unfollowed this post so if you have.anything substantial to add.please.contact.me.directly.by email at Mod: Email address removed. Thank You