Lightroom: Avoid Status Messages on Images

Rob, I often use full screen mode with a single monitor only. I think this case deserves consideration as well. Maybe the small margins around the image that exist even if all panels are collapsed could be used for status messages.

By "true" full-screen mode I meant where the image itself takes up the full-screen, necessitating the tools to be somewhere else (presumably a second monitor). In any case, I do think some real-estate can be carved out for it that does not intrude upon the image. - fingers crossed...

I imagine you or anybody else could get used to looking wherever those undo (and other) messages were being displayed, even if not on the image proper.

I also imagine I'm fighting a losing battle here...

Mark, it is much faster to just press Ctrl-Z than to use the mouse to go to the previous history step, right-click on it, and then press "\". Also, if you don't like the latest edit, the last Ctrl-Z after a Ctrl-Z/Ctrl-Y series, will automatically remove it, whereas you'd still have to do that explicitly with the "\" approach.

I'm happy to have an option for "on-image" vs "non-obstrusive" status displays. We both could be happy then. :)

Yeah, there are a couple of blank areas that are just begging to be allocated for status&info messages, IMNSHO.

When I said "faster", I meant in terms of the time required for the software to switch views rather than the number of keystrokes. On my laptop the backslash key is noticeably faster.

I'd be okay with an option too, but you have to consider that taken to the extreme, adding an option for every possible behavior is unrealistic. Lightroom's design is largely about simplicity, which sometimes results in a lack of flexibility.

Mark, switching with "\" is way faster on my laptop regarding switching times as well. I still often use the "Ctrl-Z/Ctrl-Y" approach for the reasons I mentioned above. The best solution, AFAIC, would be to enable the same fast switching time for "Ctrl-Z" as well. Makes complete sense to cache the previous image version as well (as it apparantly is done for the "Before" version).

I see your point regarding "option excess" but note that one can kill any feature request with this argument. Really, adding further optional behaviour while leaving the current behaviour as the default behaviour shouldn't hurt anyone. Preference dialogs become bigger, and maybe there are more keyboard shortcuts to control them, but that is a small price to pay for making a big difference to the users that prefer the alternative behaviour.

I can't help but think *everyone* would be happier, even the one's who don't think they would be, if Adobe chose a spot in the UI for these status messages and kept the image clean. But if that is really not the case, then I'd like to see a user option: Statuses on Bar vs. Statuses on Image. Its a constant aggravation to me as I use Lightroom to have my image space being used as a scratch-pad by Lightroom. I assumed I was in such a minority that I had previously given up the fight, and resigned myself as best I could. But since I now realize I'm not alone - its back on...

Let image space be considered sacred, at least as an option.

Rob, I think this is something that most people have thought, but I think we all appreciate Lightroom enough not to have considered complaining about it until now :) With software development being an iterative process, I can imagine that if enough of us agree that it's a good idea to keep the image space sacred, we will see this take place in further revisions. I for one would like to see, in the very least, these messages moved to the corner in a point revision, and perhaps v4 could address a global location for notifications...

I wouldn't want Adobe to waste a minute's development time on "Statuses on Bar vs. Statuses on Image". I doubt if more than a dozen people worldwide are with you!

I'll take that challenge, John!

John, your opinion is noted - however I doubt your estimate of others opinions is accurate.

Charlie, indeed - in the overall scheme of things, it could be considered a small thing, but also, it would not be that hard to remedy for those of us who would deeply appreciate it...

Even many people who claim to be OK with statuses on image turn off the "Loading" indicator. Why? - because its obtrusive. Charlie thinks the constant 'Flag As Pick' notification is also obtrusive - how about an option to turn that off too? Argument for: gets it off the image so one can get on with culling using caps-on, and if not culling with caps-on - just the usual sacred space thing. Argument against: no feedback that image was actually picked. Possible solution: move status off the image. Same arguments could be made for all the other statuses, with same solution...

Yeah, right! Somehow I have a whole lot more confidence in my estimation of user opinions than I have in yours. Do you not know how ludicrous your "fight" sounds? And as for the image area being "sacred", U-Points are pretty popular no? IOW resign yourself to this being regarded as a trivial problem.

I also consider forum space to be sacred, and as such prefer to stay away from personal conflict as much as possible. I'm OK with you expressing your opinion, but perhaps its a good reminder to *both* of us to limit what we presume about others. - how about we let them speak for themselves - deal?

Regarding U-points and brush strokes and pin viewing... - its not the ability to see things that aid in development that are the problem, its the other stuff that is being mentioned...

I'm with John, as I said before. Two reasons: (1) Not a high enough priority to spend development resources, and (2) it doesn't fit Lightroom's design.

Lightroom's design is that you're looking at the image all the time, not at sliders, controls, or other areas of the screen. Its design is to let you rest your eyes where the image is, at the center of the screen. When Lightroom needs to tell you something, it assumes that your eyes are on the image area. Transient messages outside the image area make no sense -- you have to shift your attention to see them.

Many of the examples already cited are not transient -- the "Before" in the before view, the warning triangle for PV2003, etc. They don't come and go. The bezel messages are, by their very nature, temporary and important, and need to be shown to the user in a way that the user will notice.

In my opinion, moving statuses off the image would fit just fine with Lightroom design. I think this is a matter of personal preference...

PS - its not a big deal to me anymore - I've made my peace with it, and it doesn't bother me like it used to - but its taken me a few years, and its not how I would prefer.

I wouldn't vote for this change if I thought there was a big opportunity cost involved.

Final thought: If everybody liked things the same way, there would be no "Preferences".

I don't think the progress bar area is sufficiently obvious, and the top panel can be hidden. But if I recall the last time I saw it, the Missing message appears at the top, above the image area. If that's good enough for that message, it's good enough for the other messages

Nope, it is at the top but it's still on the image.

Maybe I was looking at a landscape format image, and not zoomed in?

Stupid or tired, rather than new or inexperienced!

Well, it doesn't impose a delay, Charlie, because when Caps Lock is on the next image starts rendering immediately and the message simply gives the user feedback and something to look at while the rendering completes. I do think you have a point here though. When Caps Lock is on and the user selects a rating / label / flag, I agree the message should be there for a shorter period. That kind of implicitly-sensible behaviour, rather than preferences for everything, is more Lightroom's ethos.

John

John, telling me that I'm not experiencing a delay is like telling a woman she's not cold when she's shivering.

I can assure you that on my 2011 Macbook pro 17, which chews through 7D raw files like a hot knife through butter, it is possible to iterate through my catalog while flagging images virtually instantaneously. I often make judgements about rejected images in half a second or less, especially when I'm zipping through a ten shot burst in search of The Shot.

Try holding down the shift key and quickly Picking and Rejecting - you will see no 1.5 second bezel notification.

Try the same thing with the Caps Lock key, and you will see the notifications.

I would prefer the behavior of the Caps Lock key to be the same as holding down the Shift Key when making selections.

Before posting, I did actually confirm my understanding of what happened, so I've just done so again on my slightly older MBP with hundreds of D700 raw files. Caps Lock on, and then hitting P U or X in half a second or less, the next image appears immediately I hit the letter. The notification is effectively visible all the time as I'm auto advancing so quickly - and without any loss of "working" time (quotes only because I'm testing).

Is this delay because you've not built your previews? In which case we're really talking about a different issue and the fix isn't these messages but what is often known as "PhotoMechanic style" use of the embedded preview and GPU.

John

"The notification is effectively visible all the time as I'm auto advancing so quickly...": And this constant obstruction of part of the image is helping with making split-second decisions on image rejection/acceptance?

AFAIC, Charlie has a perfectly reasonable case. Something gets in his way and he is more than experienced enough to live with the consequences of having it removed. He doesn't want a shorter delay, he doesn't want any. He doesn't want a slightly better view on the image, he wants the best possible.

This is not the same as asking for "preferences for everything". Just consider that you could be a victim of your own dogma here. If just one important person on the LR team says "No, the 'Missing image' message has to stay" then without a possible "let the user decide"-option via preferences you might be stuck having the message forever in your face and in the face of your clients. That wouldn't be good, would it?

It's a fraction of the image and barely relevant if it's there all the time in this half-second gonzo mode. And unlike showing the Missing message when in front of clients, it makes sense as feedback and doesn't imply there's something wrong. I still think the balanced solution is a session-limited setting.

John

If these things were "barely relevant" to Charlie, & TK, and me..., they wouldn't have been brought up. Expressing your opinion and reasons for it can be helpful, but attempting to invalidate others sensibilities isn't.

And that from someone with your posting record.....

From my experience, Rob does not attempt to invalidate other's sensibilities with his posts.

Even if it were the case, his point would still be an excellent one.

I'm sorry but if Rob wishes to quote "barely relevant" out of context and say it's "attempting to invalidate others sensibilities".....

Ignoring Rob, if that's possible, I assume you put forward an idea because you think it is for the general good. You've got to be prepared for others to say no on the same basis, that in their opinion and experience it's actually undesirable, and to state their case clearly. I hope you your sensibilities are not so easily undermined!

Specifically here you attempt to use a somwhat exceptional use case - gonzo mode auto advance - to support your overall argument. Unfortunately the alleged delays appear unrelated to the notifications, and secondly the message covers "a fraction of the image and [is] barely relevant if it's there all the time in this half-second gonzo mode".

I'm sure a session-limited suppression of these notifications is the best way forward.

John, I apologize for missing your question about the delay I'm experiencing being related to having not yet rendered previews. This is not the case. Understandably, if I have not rendered previews, my bottleneck will most likely be the rendering process as I advance through images. However, I render previews on import automatically.

***

Let's say I've shot a basketball game. Let's say every quarter I import one card and continue shooting with another. Let's say that I render previews immediately after import, automatically. Let's say at the end of the game in the media room I've got a laptop with about 4,000 images which must be culled for various photo editors around the region.

Obviously, now I have a need to iterate through my take as efficiently as possible. This is not an exceptional use case, this is a fact: every (half) second counts to working photographers under a deadline.

***

If I physically hold down the shift key, I can P,U,X through my entire shoot and make selections as quickly as my brain is able to process the image. There is not waiting for the preview to render and there is no bezel notification when I am holding down the shift key and pressing P,U,X.

Caps Lock, as we have known it for years, engages the shift key and repeats the effect of the shift key for every key pressed. Caps Lock has been performing this behavior for a very long time.

But in Lightroom, engaging the Caps Lock does not replicate the behavior of the shift key entirely: it also triggers a bezel notification with each P,U,X keystroke. This notification appears on the screen, over my image, for a total of 1.5 seconds.

I am hoping that the behavior associated with the Caps Lock key can be modified to replicate the behavior of the shift key, so that I do not experience an interruption of my view of the image.

John, I hope I have clarified what I am experiencing and the type of behavior that I am asking for. I think it is a good idea to include preferences for disabling safeguards and training wheels as photographers learn to optimize their workflow. As your team moves forward to continually improve Lightroom, please consider this request. Thanks!

With those kinds of users I'd accept that such high paced review is not exceptional - which is why they're often PhotoMechanic's biggest fans - but I would say it's at one end of the bell curve and not very representative. I agree that Caps Lock should replicate the shift p u x behaviour. I just don't see how it slows down progress though, as I've tested on a couple of older machines than yours and I can make successive PUX decisions well within the 1.5 secs while the bezel is visible. If there is a real delay, we've eliminated previews so one would look at the Camera Raw cache, or ask if you're doing this auto advance in Develop which would cause rendering lag.

John

btw "your team" isn't quite right. Adobe employees are shown with various badges .

John, I think Charlie's point is that bezel is in the way regarding quick decision making. He could move forward while the bezel displays, but he doesn't want the bezel to be constantly overlayed over the image(s) while he is making quick decisions.

The feature requests proposed here, do not require a lot of development effort but would make a big difference to a number of users. I don't think that the numbers have to be "representative" as we are not talking about a huge development investment.

John, also note that the "gonzo mode auto advance" as you call it, is not my argument but Charlie's. I think he has a very good point, but it wasn't my argument.

I appreciate that ideas can be ill-conceived and that anyone proposing ideas has to live with reasoned resistance to them.

However, I don't need to accept that someone explains to me that I'm not cold when I'm shivering (to repeat Charlie's analogy). I think there is such a thing as "overprotection" when you deny users options just because inexperienced users could use them to shoot themselves into the foot. I prefer LR to be a knife that has the option to be turned "sharp". You are advocating for LR to be a blunt knife just so that users cannot hurt themselves.

Note that allowing the "Image missing" notification to be turned off, could lead inexperienced users to shoot themselves into the foot (they could believe they have access to the images, take the laptop with them, only to find out later that they forgot the external drive where the images sit on). So what you present as a non-contentious option, has a "shoot yourself into the foot" potential as well.

Guess what? I'm all for allowing yourself to shoot yourself into the foot, should you wish to turn off the "Missing image" notifications. Hence I expect that others will allow me to shoot myself into my foot.

Ever thought of attributing things to me that I've actually said? I haven't referred to inexperienced at any point - but stupid and/or tired. I haven't said gonzo mode was your argument but said you were incorrectly using it in support of your general case. And as for sharp and blunt knives which shoot people in the foot (I'm at it now but it was too good to resist!), it's simply trite to characterise your preferences-for-everything way as sharp and mine as blunt. FWIW I'm one of the few who advocates AutoSync as the default behaviour and for all adjustments....

There are plenty of other safeguards in Lightroom (eg the changes to filter panel in LR3, no local adjustment in AutoSync mode, no crop in presets) and the balanced way forward is an easy way to kill messages for the session. It easily deals with your laptop straw man argument, while leaving you perfectly free to shoot yourself anywhere you choose....