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1 Message

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210 Points

Mon, Jun 10, 2013 1:01 PM

Solved

Lightroom 5 - Output Sharpening and Noise Reduction not working.

Just installed Lightroom 5 final. Output Sharpening and Noise Reduction does not work. Whole story here:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1229132

Responses

32 Messages

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820 Points

6 years ago

Here I see the same thing. Although your screenshot taken from the Develop looks better (less noise, sharper), it's an error in Lightroom: Lightroom displays images in Develop with too much noise correction while watching them zoomed out. The Develop module is only accurate while watching at 1:1, 100% zoomed in. The Library module is more accurate.
I always zoom in to 1:1, do the noise reduction and sharpening, and then export. When I export to 1024 or lower (longest side), I put the output sharpening (in the Export module!) to Screen High. When I'm exporting to 2048, I put it on Screen, Standard. When I'm exporting to full size, I turn it off.

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

Hi Hans,

Thanks for that. I've just been playing with those settings and see what you mean. I can get the "sharpness" overall to be the more or less the same on export, but you're right. The noise reduction is miles away.

I'll just need to remember that in lightroom - what you see is not what you get. I guess a slight overshoot on the noise reduction would do the trick.

Thanks to both you and Rob for your help (@rob: I got much closer through following your extensive effort in other threads).

Thanks Gents, I wish you both a very good day.

All the best,
Shane.

32 Messages

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820 Points

6 years ago

Same to you Shane. Maybe Adobe will announce new things/solutions in 4 hours... can't wait. :)

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

Sounds like a plan!

Hans, following your final advice, I snapshotted, then did a bump of the NR just before export and set to standard sharpen on export.

End result below:


Not identical, but very very close.

Thank you BOTH for such helpful advice!

4.5K Messages

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76.3K Points

6 years ago

No mention about sharpening / NR in 5.5 release notes. So do we just chalk this up to user experience, or do some folks still think there is a software problem?

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

Hey Rob.

I would call it less a "Bug" and more a "design flaw" at this stage.

The side by side above shows that, using a work around of bumping the NR and sharpening before export, resulted in an export similar to that on screen.

The key is the language here: "Develop Module". I would expect at WYSIWYG interface here. To say that what is seen in "Develop Module" is not, in fact, the status of development due to resizing is nonsense. If an over calculation is being applied to the "preview", then simply apply the same calculation as the export. If the "Fit" size view (or any resized view) is n pixels in size, then an export should mirror it. Otherwise; local adjustments are meaningless.

I suspect the bug of failure to apply the NR and Sharpening is fixed (as the above images show). However, the design flaw is glaring. I'm guessing that the "Industry Standard" status of the product suite now leaves us, as consumers, in the usual state: "If you don't like it, don't use it".

I would prefer to see development effort going into "WYSIWYG Editing and Viewing" rather than "new features".

Sincerely though; through a combination of your explanations and Hans guidance, I was at least able to understand WHY I was getting poor export results. The workaround get's you close.

It simply means however, that Lightroom is absolutely NOT the tool for fine art photography. Since, the "finer" elements are at best challenging to reproduce on export.

Shame.

All the best gentlemen, and thank you for your help!

4.5K Messages

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76.3K Points

6 years ago

You're welcome Shane, but I'm having a hard time understanding the problem you are having.

I mean, if you apply standard output sharpening then exported files look almost identical to develop module, right?

Is the problem that it's not exactly identical, or that standard output sharpening is not the default, or...?

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

To be honest Rob. The point is closed or at best moot. Sharpening at standard on export is indeed similar to what's being seen. Similar is not same. Due to the naming of the "develop" module, one would expect to see that "developed" image prior to export - not one that is "similar".

Additionally, that covers only "sharpen". The fact that NR is off by an average of 15-20 points is certainly nonsense.

The combined effect of NR being "way off" and sharpening being "similar" results in a game of "multiple exports with tweaking of the NR slider along with changes to the export sharpening value" that could be avoided with a preview algorithm aligned to export settings.

For now, I'm resigned to "doing the export tweak dance" on the assumption that it's a behaviour of the application that unlikely to be refined in the interest of user experience and a streamlined workflow.

4.5K Messages

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76.3K Points

6 years ago

Fair enough Shane. I dunno why there are differences in sharpening in develop module versus export/standard. I mean, I could guess, but it'd just be guessing.

Regarding noise reduction - I've never noticed a difference before, but I'll keep a look out - is problem color, luminance, or both? - I assume we are talking about develop module at fit view, right? I've previously only evaluated at 1:1.

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

We are indeed talking about a fit view. Or, something resembling export size (so, generally a screen view image.

Concerning NR. It's the "volume" of NR applied. Typically, the "volume" effect (main slider value) of NR is around 10-20 points less (depending on image size) at export that seen in the "preview" in Develop Module.

In other words;

Problem:
If one exports an image of a size equal to that of the image as viewed in "Fit" or any other mode (excluding 1:1), then one can expect that the Sharpness on export is similar but not same, at the that NR volume applied is 10-20 points less than shown in the preview.

Workflow Solution:
Get a fell for the correct level of sharpness to apply and expect similar but never the same as previewed, and lift the NR volume by 10-15 points before export. Based on a quick comparison of export and preview, make a final NR tweak (intuitive but usually good enough) and then export again. Overall result will be very similar - but not the same - as previewed.

Conclusion:
My point regarding fine art elements, suggested that "if I can't see the results as I apply adjustments, and the 'fine tuning' is not the same on export, then the 'fine art' exported is different to the 'fine art' produced during adjustment. Light room is great for very, very good. But, not great for images where the 'fine subtleties' are an important element of the final export.

I realise, of course, that viewing the same image on 500 screens, is tantamount to reviewing 500 different images. So, again, the point becomes moot. Except when on considers an avoidable "tweak dance" on export. ;-)

4.5K Messages

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76.3K Points

6 years ago

So, luminance, not color NR - right? color noise reduction is about the same??

I'm trying to see the difference in lum.NR, but so far they look the same to me - I'll run some more tests though..

Perhaps another reason I never noticed it is I rarely apply much more than 10-15 points total - I guess you gotta be crankin' it up pretty high to identify a 10-15/20 point swing.

Regardless, I get your point - reduced size exports for screen not looking same as fit-view in Lr is a problem. You are exporting at same dimensions as displayed in Lightroom, then viewing those at 1:1 for comparison, I hope.

In case you've not yet considered: when you are exporting a 4000 pixel photo at 800 pixels, you are condensing 25 pixels into 1 - the effect of lum. NR at such reductions is ~0 (same goes for develop module sharpening). What are the sizes of your originals vs. export size?

Cheers,
Rob

12 Messages

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174 Points

6 years ago

All of these points are indeed considered, hence the desired result being achieved some time back. On cranking the NR, can be a desired effect (as for the previous image) - but is certainly not typically the case.

As for orginal size; I shoot and work in RAW (actually .DNG).

Thanks again.
Shane.

5 Messages

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100 Points

6 years ago

This is a size aspect ratio problem with the user of the software etc.----if your using the "5inches by 11 inches" print format, then you need to size your image in the image sizing format in photoshop first, then bring the image in light room --if your image is bigger than the 5 by 11 format--then the reduce noise features will be changed by the software and your reduce noise is changed etc.

5 Messages

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100 Points

6 years ago

This is a size aspect ratio problem with the user of the software etc.----if your using the "5inches by 11 inches" print format, then you need to size your image in the image sizing format in photoshop first, then bring the image in light room --if your image is bigger than the 5 by 11 format--then the reduce noise features will be changed by the software and your reduce noise is changed etc.

1 Message

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60 Points

6 years ago

Im glad I came accross this topic as its been plaguing me for some time and I assumed it was something im doing. Its one of the main reasons ive moved to another editing program as the time saved by my workflow in lightroom is more than lost due to the tweaks required after exporting. I primarily shoot weddings and a lot of images are at high ISO and I need accuracy in what im seeing. The program I use now gives me an export that identically matches what I see during the edit which has removed all the guesswork I was experiencing with lightroom.

As for resizing in another program prior to lightroom editing, that just negates the efficiency of lightroom altogether.

4.5K Messages

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76.3K Points

Which editing program did you move to?