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Adobe Photoshop Family

38 Messages

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1.1K Points

Wed, Jul 6, 2016 2:18 AM

In progress

An Open Letter to Adobe

Dear Adobe,

I have been using Photoshop since version 3 - not CS3 but original version 3. That means 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, CS, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5, CS6, CC, CC 2014, CC2015 etc.

I have been using Lightroom since Version 1. That means 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, CC, CC2015, etc.

I have been using Adobe Acrobat forever as well.

I have come to think of the folks at Adobe as either brilliant aliens or exceptional humans - not sure which. I have always been in awe of the quality and reliability of the software products delivered by your company and have come to rely on them for my business every day.

Now, we are playing a different game. At first I thought the Adobe cloud was the best thing since sliced bread - constant updates for bug fixes, no more huge upgrade fees, no more waiting for a bug fix or new features... Wow! It seemed awesome. Before, we had to wait months for updates for bug fixes and almost 18-24 months for new versions with new features.

Now, that is history as I get updates and new features constantly - except, they introduce a whole new set of problems. With every fix of three bugs, it seems you introduce five new bugs, breaking things that worked before. Every few weeks, the features change, the display is different, a new way way to access tools (like refine edges) just shows up.

You at Adobe may think this is great but out here in the "Trying to do business" world we are tired of the constant learning curve, whether we want it or not, whether we have time for it or not, whether it works for our workflow or not, and on and on and on.

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and rethink the "Adobe Cloud Approach". 

First of all SLOW DOWN! Do not send me an update so you can tell the world how many updates and changes you made. First, MAKE IT WORK PROPERLY!!!! Send it out for more BETA TESTING. I will wait the extra 2-3 months for an update if it WORKS when I get it. I am sure everyone would rather have slower update time-frames with fewer new bugs (e.g. Lightroom Memory Leak).

Second, stop changing the program every month! Send bug fixes once they are fully tested and working properly without introduction of new problems and wait 18-24 months for new version upgrades. Many of us teach classes in Photoshop and Lightroom and this is making our students hate Adobe. As they are trying to learn, Adobe introduces some drastic changes making it nearly impossible to learn the software (e.g. Refine edges and "Select" menu).

Anyone producing workbooks or other literature to help others use and learn your software are completely unable to keep up! Believe it or not, we are out here trying to HELP YOU. By training others to join the cloud and use your software, you are the ones benefiting from our efforts and you are strangling us, making our job impossible.

So far, I have made many entries on the blog, complained along with thousands of others about some issues (the disaster of the new Import Dialog) and it seems Adobe really does not care. Well, Adobe, you need to start caring or many of us that have been loyal customers for years and introduced hundreds of others to your software are going to be forced to look elsewhere.

Please WAKE UP!!!!! 

Responses

Official Solution

Adobe Administrator

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14.8K Messages

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284.9K Points

4 years ago

Hi folks, I wanted to reply and say we're following this discussion and are sympathetic to your concerns. We've been having recent, ongoing discussions within our product teams about how to best pace releases - balancing feature work, bug fixing, polish and architectural improvements. Many folks on the digital imaging team are out out on holiday this week, but we hope to have a broader discussion/response in the upcoming week(s). Thanks for the feedback and honesty.

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

551 Messages

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11.8K Points

Thank you Jeffrey. I wish they have a lovely holiday and return with fresh ideas.

Champion

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1.6K Messages

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24.7K Points

Thank you for chiming in. 
If possible/allowed it would be nice to hear how the internal discussions are going sometime. 

438 Messages

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6.5K Points

" I wish they have a lovely holiday and return with fresh ideas."

............................................

No, no, please no! Lets get all the old ideas working properly before we get any more new stuff.


Bob Frost

438 Messages

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6.5K Points

Hi Jeff, why not make some of your CC releases clearly labelled 'public betas' - 'try this and give us your opinions and suggestions for improvement.' ?

Those who don't want their workflows disrupted can avoid the 'betas', and those of us who are more experimentally inclined can try them, knowing that they are betas and might cause problems.


Bob Frost

Champion

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1.6K Messages

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24.7K Points

No, no, please no! Lets get all the old ideas working properly before we get any more new stuff.
I trust Mr.Tranberry got the gist of this thread and will have corresponding communications with (some of) his colleagues and possibly superiors. 

Official Solution

Adobe Administrator

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14.8K Messages

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284.9K Points

4 years ago

Please take this short survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/PhotoshopReleaseSurvey

We'd like your feedback on how often you'd like to see Photoshop updated as well as your thoughts on balancing new features, bug fixes and polish to existing features.

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

32 Messages

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444 Points

Just did the survey. Good idea in principle.
Pretty irritating was the fact that I answered half of it with the conviction that it would surely start asking me about Lightroom instead of Photoshop ONLY. Turned out to be a mistake...
Point is that I use Lightroom about fifty times more often than Photoshop.

248 Messages

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4.1K Points

The survey is a great idea.  You should do one for Lightroom too.  I bet you'll get different feedback for Lr vs Ps.

1.3K Messages

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22.5K Points

'I bet you'll get different feedback for Lr vs Ps."

Not least because of new raw file support.

10 Messages

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252 Points

What a joke!  If you are NOT a Creative Cload user, the only information they deem valuable is ending this survey at question 1.  A telling remonder that if you are a perpetual user, your thoughts have absolutly no value.  "&^%$ you"  is the real message I hear clearly.

Adobe Administrator

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14.8K Messages

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284.9K Points

@Doug, How so? The survey is about Photoshop and updates. Photoshop CC is the only version that is being updated. I don't see any registered products under you account.

Sr. Product Manager, Adobe Digital Imaging

163 Messages

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3.2K Points

4 years ago

Thank you Joel! I totally agree. It seems the developers are so focussed on their own upgrade path that they're not interested in even attempting to fix problems the user base keeps complaining about over and over.

1 Message

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102 Points

Joel - your letter echoes a letter I sent (paper/ink etc.) to Adobe earlier this year. The total arrogance they display towards their paying customers is staggering. As a teacher of publishing, web, communication design I rely on functioning, supported software and Adobe offer that reassurance but increasingly I find myself in the position of "extended salesman" for that company as the "go-to" solution. They have frequently let me down with their withdrawal of support for heralded programmes and total lack of feedback to complaints. As a member of a university I have the responsibility to ensure a continued line of learning and resource, as such I have to ensure "future-proofing" my modules. Due to the lack of response to my concerns I will have to consider seeking alternative software solutions. As a citizen of the U.K. Adobe, you had better beware that following our recent rejection of Europe we have found our voice - if you continue with your arrogant stance you will be rejected.
Sorry Shane for hijacking your post - it seemed to be the only way to post a response.

Ian

32 Messages

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444 Points

Funny. And using Europe as a cudgel seems a bit irrelevant.

1 Message

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64 Points

Agree, I just had a most frustrating conversation with their "helpful chat persons" about the lack of using paypal in SA for purchases, although other companies do use it - effectively. And how convenient that everybody is on leave at the same time... it's not Adobe... it feels more like Alice in Wonderland.

551 Messages

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11.8K Points

Yup, just follow the white rabbit!

126 Messages

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2.4K Points

adobe is the worst software company that i have to deal with.

it is only surviving because  there is no real competition.

their support is non-existant. the hotline is useless.

with every new CC version the amount of bugs increase.


the last stupid decision adobe made is not to provide offline installers.

and with the one installer they provide you can not choose a language on installation.

hell what is wrong with you guys at adobe?

is it so hard to use your brains and anticipate what users might want to do?


it ́s a mess. the development team is completey unable to deliver a mature product.

after effects was a mess for month because of the cache issues. we had to go back to an earlier version.

GPU support in adobe apps is like it was written by a 14 year old script kid. 

if you dont get it right on time then take the time.... but don ́t introduce features that only work 50% of the time.


i would feel ashamed if i would work for adobe.

honestly... i would feel ashamed!!






 


7 Messages

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198 Points

4 years ago

Definitely copy dat!!!!

62 Messages

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954 Points

4 years ago

Thanks for writing that!!  I don't even try anymore to keep up with the upgrades and updates. it has become a chore to keep up. I want back the days where there was so much excitement around upgrades :) I have been fighting slower and slower lightroom and have had to regress to earlier versions of it and do not intend to upgrade till they have fixed the memory leak. It has been very hard to get any kind of help from them other than 'looks like you use a lot of local adjustments" and "your files are very big" and "try to close all active panels and tools" plus the typical "update your driver" and "your computer seems slow" and it surely is not. 
it looks like Adobe is marketing their products to the large masses that play with their stuff and they are leaving the people that work on their software behind. We have become a very small percentage of the market and it does not look like it is worth keeping us in the loop any more.  
Sad!

33 Messages

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902 Points

4 years ago

The lack of adequate quality control in Lightroom especially is really a serious issue.

4 Messages

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178 Points

Especially for those who use it for their photography business. 

126 Messages

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2.4K Points

there is no quality control at all at adobe.


nobody can tell me that adobe has betatester... or they must be drunk 24/7.

some bugs are discovered 20 minutes after a new version is released by dozend of people.

bugs that affect not only 1% but 70-100% of all users.


how is that possible if adobe has betatester?

this can happen because there is NO quality control at adobe.


and why should adobe spend money on quality control?

they have us as betatester. we have to pay subscription now.

we have to pay anyway, no matter how bad the product is.



127 Messages

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2K Points

The worst thing is if you are posting a massive workflow influencing bug, the Adobe "support" is first and only pointing arrogantly in other directions and after a long period (1 year!) of repeated costumer complaints and bug descriptions they Release a fix and thats it. Such a bad experience.

220 Messages

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4.5K Points

4 years ago

Such an accurate account of the situation, thank you for putting it out there. I wish I could say the same stuff without getting angry, but I usually freak out and start spewing expletives when Adobe or Apple are brought up. I feel every bit of what you've posted.

Seems the Adobe platform has become a bit of a playground for their developers/engineers, not to mention Marketing with their metrics and data logging bullsh*t permeating the software.

Champion

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1.6K Messages

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24.7K Points

Seems the Adobe platform has become a bit of a playground for their developers/engineers
I disagree. 
If the engineers were in charge I doubt a known bug would go unfixed for more than a decade (talking about Illustrator in this specific case, though). 
I suspect to an engineer a bug is something that should be fixed whereas to management a bug might be undeserving of notice or resources unless it affects a sufficiently large number of the product’s users. 

not to mention Marketing with their metrics and data logging bullsh*t 
That part on the other hand may be of considerable significance ... 

163 Messages

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3.2K Points

You're absolutely right Christoph. It's probably almost as annoying for the engineers as it is for us. It has Marketing's fingerprints all over it.

3 Messages

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86 Points

Terrific summary letter, Joel W.  I will simply say, the behavior attributed to Adobe is in essence, the same as exhibited by Google (both desktop and mobile; e.g. Navigator) and now Microsoft with W10.  The multiple problems were explained succinctly above. The chaos engendered by the constant tweaking multiplies tenfold when real world users get a hold of the "new" version.  We're in a sad state of software design, right now, in all of our opinions!

551 Messages

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11.8K Points

4 years ago

I totally understand your exhaustion!

79 Messages

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1.3K Points

4 years ago

Many times I did (do..)  not even dare telling how desperate I am about slow LR. Going over and over the strategies to have it going smooth. And it does eventually run amazingly well (maybe because I created virtual Ram out of SSD -hmm forgot what it is I did), (i speak in terms of years and month), than a little update again and back to huge trouble, loosing presets, getting wrong guidelines over the Adobe phone support, just a big sea of bkup strategies that are impossible to fully apprehend even though I'm not stupid -(believe it or not lol).  I cannot recommend LR anymore around me. I help those who choose it, but I do not recommend it anymore. Dependency, far to complicated options that are not endorsed honestly by Adobe.

64 Messages

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1.4K Points

4 years ago

I fully agree, too!

As far as LR is concerned:

I remember well, how version 1 was introduced by Adobe with the words, that LR was programmed fresh from the ground up in coco to take advantage of all the modern programming stuff ( Iam not knowledgeable about programming) and not having to deal with ancient code in order to make it fast and responsive.

Well, all I can say is, that LR was ok in version 1, 2 and 3, but it was never fast and responsive to begin with. Version 6 was promised to be more performant than Version 5, but to me it has become even slower and less responsive. Sometimes the performance is acceptable, some other time working in the very same library, the performance comes to a crawl for no apparent reason. Quitting the program and relaunching it sometimes helps to make it more responsive again, some other time, it doesn't. To me that just shows, that there are some serious programming flaws inherent in the product!

Graphic card acceleration: Turning that feature on, which was advertised big times, made LR crash ever so often on my system. You could work one hour with LR and then suddenly it would crash. Turning graphic card acceleration off, was the solution for the crashes to stop. Testing certain operations with acceleration turned on and off made me wonder, why that feature even existed, because on my machine it did not make any difference in rendering times. And as far as crashes are concerned: An iMac i7 27" inch does not come in too many graphic card configurations as to make it impossible to test them all for bugs, if you list them as supported graphic cards.

Face recognition: Also one of the big advertised features. Turning that on with a 16000 picture catalogue brought the program to a slide show crawl! For a professional program, that is an absolute joke and I still can not believe, that Adobe would even implement such a horribly slow and unusable feature in a release version and advertise it! I wasted three days to try to get face recognition to work and finally I gave up, because it is truly unusable and the results it gave me were a joke! LR needed one full day to go through all the pictures to analyse them, Apple's Photo app was done in three hours and did a fairly good job and was still usable while analyzing. It is also funny, that the Adobe video that explains that feature uses a 20 picture folder to show how face recognition works. Who needs face recognition on a 20 picture album?

Speed: The client catalogue I am working on right now has just over 1000 pictures and takes exactly one full minute to launch! What is LR 6.6 doing for one full minute? I can say for sure that the first version of LR 6 was speedier in all respects, version 6.6 seems to have been programmed on a Monday morning.

Final thought: Instead of introducing new features, Adobe should really and honestly work on all the bugs that LR has and try to make it more responsive and faster.
I guess forcing clients into the subscription model pressures them also to think they have to introduce new features all the time, since clients would rightfully ask why they are paying every month for a program, that does not evolve. Maybe they should write an open letter to their subscription clients and tell them, that they will emphasize on getting rid of bugs and making the thing faster for the coming year and that that is also a service that they are paying for with their subscriptions. I am sure moste people would welcome that.    

32 Messages

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444 Points

Love your "final thought"!
Marketing gadgets don't really help.

8 Messages

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166 Points

4 years ago

So much yes here. Well said Joel.

10 Messages

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252 Points

4 years ago

I concur fervently, but would have added several graphical expletives to highly the extreme frustration we have been experiencing.  Adobe's Directors must remove their collective heads from their rectum.  Correct this deadly spiral-drive of what is left of their products reputation.  My $0.02

163 Messages

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3.2K Points

4 years ago

Just as a clarification, for anyone from Adobe who might actually read this (not holding my breath). In this last week alone, the slowness of LR vs Capture One has cost me in time, at my charge out rate, more than a years worth of CC payments. So, the moment I can find a set of tools to replace Adobe's suite, I'm out of it, regardless of the cost of the replacement software. Adobe needs to get this. The cost of battling bugs instead of getting work done, for a professional, far outweighs the cost of the software.

Champion

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1.6K Messages

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24.7K Points

Just as a clarification, for anyone from Adobe who might actually read this (not holding my breath). 
This Forum is being monitored, so it seems certain that the thread has been registered – whether each post is being read by some Adobe employee I don’t know. 

87 Messages

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1.6K Points

So, the moment I can find a set of tools to replace Adobe's suite, I'm out of it, regardless of the cost of the replacement software
Same here. C1 is great, but complicated to get into the strange workflow. I'd try the switch instantly when they implement a history.

3 Messages

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86 Points

Truly, I think current employees of "Company X" ( here, Adobe) could care less what happens after the release button is pushed.  They'll be shopping their coding talents around and won't be in the same organization in less than 2 years !!

3 Messages

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86 Points

I suspect the users of many one-time #1 status programs are now more than willing to try ANYTHING that will make their job DOABLE, let alone easier !

62 Messages

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954 Points

4 years ago

if I only knew how much time and money I have spent on this slow issue. installs, uninstalls, I bought a new hard drive and hours of waiting on LR and writing emails to to adobe and reading forums :(

322 Messages

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7.5K Points

4 years ago

Couldn't agree more Joel ... except my usage dates back to Ps v2.0 circa 1992 ... ditto on on Lr from the beginning and also for InDesign though I haven't upgraded that since IDCS6.

I posed the scenario of Adobe management becoming lethargic, ineffective and uncaring back in the early days of the CC only pathway for Adobe CS products. It's only human nature to become lazy and develop a sense of entitlement when you convert your sales staff from commission to a steady salary form of payroll. No incentive to excel.

I worried that eventually management and the executives would prioritize profits over results instead of seeking a balanced approach that focuses on quality assurance. Though, I never expected so many incidents this soon in just one product cycle. I thought it would take a bit longer for them to fall prey to such a process.

What good is the 'Guided Upright'  feature if a significant number of users can't accurately print that 'upright' image correctly due to color management issues? It's just another failure in attention to detail before a version update is released.

Looking back on Lightroom 6.x/2015.x ... it has been a three ring circus comedy of errors with multiple minor and major fiascos that when scrutinized in toto, does not bode well for end users. It's been like they are asleep at the wheel.

So far, in the past year, for multiple updates, I have put off for several months updating Lightroom CC because of major issues caused by the ineptitude of those running the show for the Lightroom team. Yet, Adobe has received my monthly stipend without fail. They get their money ... I get more problems and the absence of what I am paying for. On some level, reasonable thinking folks could consider this theft of services by the developer.

What good is paying a fee every 30 days if they constantly screw up the application so I can't take advantage of the few new features, bug fixes and new camera/lens support offered in the updates? I end up paying for the new stuff, but can't use it because they release faulty, problematic products that hamper or entirely break my workflow.

We had to endure the Import Dialog Simplification implosion that took considerable valuable time for the engineers to rectify, not to mention the the problems most longtime traditional users had to endure because management thought they knew better. After which we end users received an apology and a promise they were going to 'listen' better ... they seem to have fallen tone deaf immediately afterward.

Then later on, it took three tries to restore the capability to export multiple images to Photoshop droplets after a botched update that broke the capability that had been around since at least Lr v2. 

Now there are major ColorSync/printer profile issues for users of at least some Epson printers ... and Adobe insists it's the absence of OS and/or printer driver updates? ... When the proof in the pudding indicates no other apps created by other developers experience the same issues using the same exact OS versions and printer drivers they recommend applying?

Do they think we are idiots?

I must be, because I allowed my monthly payment for July 2016 to be paid to Adobe yesterday. I promise I won't be so forgiving if this trend continues until my next annual agreement comes around.