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14 Messages

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554 Points

Thu, Mar 31, 2011 2:11 PM

35

Please give us a 64-bit version of Adobe Color Management Module (CMM)

There are a lot of people out there that could use a 64-bit version of Adobe CMM. At the very least users of Canon's iPF pro printers, such as the iPF8300 and iPF6300, would love to see this so they can use Canon's excellent print plug-in in 64-bit. The print plug-in is built to use CMM. For many of the same reasons there is a 64-bit version of Photoshop, there should be a 64-bit version of CMM. It's as if Photoshop 64-bit is unfinished -- CMM is an important component for many of us. And if you also use a Canon ipF printer, it is twice as important. I'm sure Canon would love for you to complete and issue the 64-bit version of CMM. There are many of us out here. Please help us out. Thanks.

Responses

7 Messages

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130 Points

10 years ago

7 Messages

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130 Points

10 years ago

I hope someone at Adobe is working on the 64 bit CMM

8 Messages

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194 Points

10 years ago

this question has gone unanswered at the original adobe CMM forum for over a year, and my emails to adobe have been answered over the years with great speed and help, but not on this one; i've gotten zero response on 64-bit CMM. and yes, even canon does not understand nor know from adobe what their plans are.

for now, isn't there a alternate workaround? i thinki read somewhere that you can convert the image's colorspace within photoshop. by using the CONVERT TO PROFILE command, and then choosing your paper/ink custom profile under DESTINATION SPACE, and then choosing relcol or perceptual under INTENT, and this way you can enable USE BPC here. i just dont know which ENGINE would best be used, adobe ace, adobe cmm, or ms.
so if one can convert the image within photoshop using BPC to the printers custom profile, then the canon plugin doesnt need to use BPC itself (and adobes cmm).

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

10 years ago

We'll go ask the color coretech team about it and let you know.

14 Messages

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554 Points

10 years ago

Chris, that would be great. A lot of people are interested in seeing Adobe move forward on this a fill this gap in the software.

8 Messages

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194 Points

10 years ago

thank you chris, it is the one thing keeping me in xp32 land and not moving over to win7-64 until i know theres either CMM64 coming, or a workaround thats possible.
if adobes NOT releasing a 64-bit version and CMM is being phased out, i would hope that canon & adobe would converse on the topic since it affects all canon iPF owners who want the best possible prints, and then canon could not pin their hopes on adobe releasing it, and they could then try another way of resolving the BPC issue.

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

10 years ago

How are you using the Adobe CMM? Is it really that important to your work?

(sorry, gotta justify this to some managers)

14 Messages

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554 Points

10 years ago

Maybe Gary can respond as well, but it is key to unlocking all the potential image quality and color control of Canon's Photoshop print plug-in.

"The (Canon) iPF8300, iPF6350 and iPF6300 come bundled with a new Print Plug-In for Photoshop® and support for Adobe Colour Management Module, enabling features such as Black Point Compensation. Through the Photoshop Plug-In, each new model allows 16-bit RGB images edited in Photoshop to be sent directly to the imagePROGRAF printers, preserving smooth and high gradation."

There are versions of the plug-in for both 32-bit and 64-bit Photoshop. (I work in 64-bit). However, the excellent plug-in's benefits are limited in the 64-bit version because it can no use CMM because there is no 64-bit CMM.

With a 64-bit CMM it would be the final piece in unlocking all the benefits of a 64-bit workflow.

8 Messages

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194 Points

10 years ago

- canon has a photoshop plugin for all of its iPF printers, and for both pc and mac. this plugin bypasses the standard print engine that comes with windows, and with that direct link it is possible for the iPF series to print beyond 8-bit, as well as other features just not possible using the standard windows print engine because of its limitations.
since canon and epson account for 'most' of the large format printers from 17"-60", this means a large number of people are using canon printers and photoshop together. and of that number, most are also using the canon photoshop plugin in order to take advantage of wider-than-8bit print gamut, and those other great perks of the iPF lineup.

- within that canon plugin is a 'conversion' section, where someone converts their images original gamut (say adobeRGB or prophoto) into the printers gamut (whether they are using a generic profile that came with their printer or paper, or they custom profile their paper/ink combos themselves).

- in that conversion section of the canon plugin (from photos profile to actual printer profile), are the typical gamut-conversion options of 'perceptual, saturation, or relcol'. and under those choices is the much-adored 'use BPC' checkbox, which as you know is critical when doing most conversions, for without black point compensation theres a noticable shift or loss in the low-end.

- canon has one requirement for someone to use BPC for correct conversions - you must have adobes CMM installed, for that is what does the conversion. without adobe CMM installed all iPF users cannot use BPC, and thus, cannot get an optimum/correct print.

- so adobe CMM exists in 32bit, but not 64bit. so all 64bit users cannot enable BPC on their $xxxx printers, which is a shame.

- theres been threads about this BPC issue in dozens of posts going back 2 years in many photo or print forums, and there are reviews which mention how great the ipf printers are, but they also mention the problem with BPC as one of the weak points.
also, myself and others have contacted canon, but their hands are tied as far as how much they can do, they have said they can only mention it to adobe but of course they cannot force your hand, as neither can we. but i believe certainly adobe knows the limitations of the windows print engine, and since we are only as strong as our weakest link, it is nice to remove that link from the workflow chain.
so perhaps CMM is going by the wayside as to convert the program is a major task for adobe, or there is little need for it outside of us canon users, but, though it is a single need, its one which affects all canon ipf users, because canons programmers cannot do any more then what theyve done.
so without CMM-64, it leaves us win7-64 users (and mac i believe as well tho i cannot verify myself) with our largeformat canons at a dead end, and if we were a crowd getting smaller as time passes, it would be ok, but this is a future event that the print world is moving into, not out of. we all have to move to 64bit, and we all have to use canons plugin to get over 8-bit printing and other features.
if it is not feasible to work on a CMM-64, then i would ask, beg, bribe, adobe to work with canon, and find another way, as in giving canon the snippets of coding 'just' for doing the BPC conversions, or helping them with a workaround. for i would think that the base of photoshop64 and canonipf users is only going to grow with each season, and thus more people have a need for it. again, if it is up to canon to develop their own way to do it without adobes CMM, i hope adobe can at least give them some help with it.

thanks again, sorry its drawn out but didnt want to miss any points if a 3rd-party reads this.

1 Message

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60 Points

10 years ago

I've been doing quite a bit of testing with the iPF8300 on the Mac, and it's a bit of a pain to have to remember to start up 32 bit Photoshop if I want to print using BPC and in a similar way to other PS printing.

Not as bad as being stuck in 32bit OS like the windows people, but a definite gap

5 Messages

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200 Points

10 years ago

> canon has one requirement for someone to use BPC for correct conversions - you must have adobes CMM installed, for that is what does the conversion. without adobe CMM installed all iPF users cannot use BPC, and thus, cannot get an optimum/correct print.

So what CMM do they use? They can implement BPC (its not something only Adobe provides). Shouldn’t Canon be reasonable for BPC in their export module?

15.1K Messages

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195.8K Points

Adobe did document the BPC logic in a white paper many years ago.
Available from
http://www.color.org/AdobeBPC.pdf and other locations if you do a google search.

14 Messages

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554 Points

10 years ago

Without a 64-bit Adobe CMM, Canon uses an "OS Standard CMM" for it's ICC conversion engine in the 64-bit print plug-in, and it does not have black point compensation.

As per the Canon iPF 8300 printer manual:

"Adobe CMM needs to be installed in order to use ICCv4 profiles. Refer to Using Adobe CMM."

and

"Adobe CMM is a color conversion engine made by Adobe. Using Adobe CMM makes it possible to obtain uniform color conversion results and to use the black point compensation function."

and

"Adobe CMM is required in order to use the black point compensation function." (it says this about 3 or 4 times in different ways).

1.6K Messages

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20.4K Points

10 years ago

>>Without a 64-bit Adobe CMM, Canon uses an "OS Standard CMM" for it's ICC conversion engine in the 64-bit print plug-in, and it does not have black point compensation.

What CMM? There are several. The OS Standard CMM on Mac and Windows isn’t the same.

These CMM’s can utilize BPC, someone has to write that into them. IOW, BPC is not exclusive to Adobe CMM (although they brought BPC’s needs in a CMM to everyone’s attention.

>"Adobe CMM needs to be installed in order to use ICCv4 profiles. Refer to Using Adobe CMM."

OTW Canon isn’t providing a CMM with BPC and since Adobe’s has this, here’s one way to implement BPC. As for V4 profiles, the best thing you can do today is avoid them. Off hand I don’t know of any current ICC profile building solution from say X-Rite or DataColor that fully uses V4 spec (even the new i1Profiler doesn’t use PRMG) so these are V2 profiles in sheep’s clothing. More often than not, V4 profiles produce more problems than V2 (like sum dots due to various bugs). IOW, not only are V4 profiles not ready for prime time today, its got nothing to do with CMM’s or BPC.

While it would be lovely for Adobe to update the CMM for 64-bit, if you really think its necessary within the Canon plug-in, you should be asking them why the only depend on ACE and expect Adobe to update their CMM for their driver.

I also don’t see why you could not use ACE within Convert to Profile and then set the driver for no color management. Its not an ideal fix but it would work.

Maybe Adobe will be generous in their time and engineering costs to update ACE for 64-bit. But other than helping out Canon, is there a compelling reason to do so?

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

8 Messages

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194 Points

10 years ago

>"While it would be lovely for Adobe to update the CMM for 64-bit, if you really think its necessary within the Canon plug-in, you should be asking them why the only depend on ACE and expect Adobe to update their CMM for their driver. "

'yes' or 'no' would be fine for us.
i had mentioned that people have asked for over a year in multiple forums for its future, including canons own cmm forum from last year. but whether via tech sup emails or forum posts, nothing was heard.
if yes, great, but if no, that is fine too, i only asked that perhaps adobe could give some help to canon regarding it. canons own tech support last autumn told me they just were assuming adobe would release a 64b cmm, and if not, well, they hadn't reached that step yet because they too did not know what adobe would do, they were, like us, just waiting to hear yea or nay, for we naturally all hope for the best outcome but we can accept the worst and move on.

>"I also don’t see why you could not use ACE within Convert to Profile and then set the driver for no color management. Its not an ideal fix but it would work."

yes, i had mentioned that workaround, as i do imagine that is a proper workaround, i do believe it would be perfectly the same outcome, no? certainly what we can do until canon made their next move based on adobes decision. i definitely agree adobe should not port CMM if this is one of only a few reasons anyone needs to bring it into the future. i certainly have never installed it before, nor would i if it were not for this. apparently calculating bpc is one of the more complex issues in the colorspace conversion math.

this is a new forum where we are asked for our hopes and wishes in photoshop, we post and cross fingers, appreciating the chance to be heard,

the adobeBPC pdf chris links to above is very handy, and if there is no CMM-64 then i hope to forward that to canons support, as it seems to provide the actual math models for conversion and should be something for canon to work with in creating their own implementation of BPC.

14 Messages

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554 Points

10 years ago

Andrew writes, >"What CMM? There are several. The OS Standard CMM on Mac and Windows isn’t the same."

That's just what it says in the Canon software. I presume it is different for every OS, like you suggest -- different for MAC, different for WIN and neither as good as Adobe CMM.

Andrew also writes, >"While it would be lovely for Adobe to update the CMM for 64-bit, if you really think its necessary within the Canon plug-in, you should be asking them why the only depend on ACE and expect Adobe to update their CMM for their driver."
and
>"Maybe Adobe will be generous in their time and engineering costs to update ACE for 64-bit. But other than helping out Canon, is there a compelling reason to do so? "

I'm not sure why you are so aggressively protesting this request. What do you care if Adobe updates a bit of software that I and many others would gratefully use? Why do you care? You don't use it or need it, so the rest of us can just go to blazes? I suppose you don't use Canon printers, or with all your expertise in this area you've got something else worked out. Bully for you. But for me and for others this would be great to have. There is no comparable alternative and you're not constructively offering us one. Why would you want to actively obstruct people getting something they need? Do you have something against me, do you have something against Canon? Does it harm you, your own product offerings, or your clients in any way? I just don't understand your behavior.

Canon's Photoshop print plug-in using Adobe CMM works really well in 32-bit. It is an excellent piece of software, and a real step forward in performance for these printers and provides full 16-bit print output (it won't with Andrew's ACE within Convert-to-Profile "fix") and delivers excellent usability. This level of performance is just not available to those of us that use 64-bit Photoshop and OS. Adobe in their wisdom created a 64-bit version of Photoshop and I am pleased and grateful that they did. For the same reasons that 64-bit is valuable in Photoshop, a 64-bit Adobe CMM is also valuable and it would allow me to maximize the quality of my print output from Photoshop. Yes, there is most definitely a compelling reason to do so.

Yes, it would be "lovely for Adobe to update the CMM for 64-bit". But they would not be doing it so they could be "helping out Canon". Canon isn't asking for this. I am asking for it, Gary is asking for it, Keith is asking for it, many others have asked for and about it, and many others still have lamented about not having it. No, it is NOT to help out Canon. It is to help out ME and thousands of other loyal Adobe customers who also use Canon printers.