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85 Messages

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1K Points

Sat, Jan 13, 2018 10:28 AM

Lightroom/Camera Raw: Camera Standard profile for A7R III is terribly off

The Camera Standard profile Adobe has created for the A7R III adds a notable yellow cast to the image (unlike say Neutral or Vivid). Clearly not a match for the in-camera Standard profile when shooting jpg.Dear Adobe, can you please correct this?thanks

Responses

Champion

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1.4K Messages

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24.5K Points

3 years ago

Some examples would help diagnose the issue.  Can you post screenshots? 

Do the exported versions of your pictures when using this profile still exhibit the yellow cast?

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

You can fix this! .dcp profiles are white balance agnostic and users must still apply WB.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

@Rikk, will do when I have a sec

@Andrew I know I can still fix it changing the WB but if Adobe got the profile right in first instance I would save time...Canon ones are very good.  What is the origin of the yellow cast, is it color rendition or the profile is also applying it's own white balance on top of color rendition and tone? With the Canon profiles I never experiences any color cast/WB shift.

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

There is no 'right' here! You have a warm cast; fix it. The profiles don't handle this by design. Or roll your own profile for your specific sensor:
Everything you thought you wanted to know about DNG camera profiles:

All about In this 30 minute video, we’ll look into the creation and use of DNG camera profiles in three raw converters. The video covers:


What are DNG camera profiles, how do they differ from ICC camera profiles.

Misconceptions about DNG camera profiles.

Just when, and why do you need to build custom DNG camera profiles?

How to build custom DNG camera profiles using the X-rite Passport software.

The role of various illuminants on camera sensors and DNG camera profiles.

Dual Illuminant DNG camera profiles.

Examples of usage of DNG camera profiles in Lightroom, ACR, and Iridient Developer.


Low Rez (YouTube):

http://youtu.be/_fikTm8XIt4


High Rez (download):

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/DNG%20Camera%20profile%20video.mov

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

I mean the other profiles (Adobe Standard, Sony Camera Neutral, Vivid etc) do not have the same cast, I assume it was a mistake on Adobe side when creating the profile rather than a  problem of my hardware?

Champion

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2.2K Messages

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37.4K Points

I see no difference in the A7R III Camera Standard and Camera Neutral WB and no yellow tint on my 6500K  calibrated display. Images downloaded here:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7r-iii/sony-a7r-iiiTHMB.HTM

The embedded preview looks identical to the LR Camera Standard rendering. Ditto for the camera JPEG file at the above site. My guess is you have a monitor calibration issue download the files for your own comparison:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7r-iii/A7R3hSLI000100NR0.HTM

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7r-iii/A7R3hSLI000100NR0.ARW.HTM

85 Messages

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1K Points

Todd, see my last message with the picture comparison below. My monitor is also calibrated to 6500k 

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

Don't make such assumptions. Do shoot say a color checker in daylight and provide  example here AFTER WB. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

would love to but I don't have a color checker. Will see what I can do but other people have noted the same yellow cast using that profile.

While you are here, can you take a look here? https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60635548
Thanks Andrew!

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

The DPR post is kind of meaningless. CCT values define a range (a large range) of possible colors and differing values can define the same color! 
http://digitaldog.net/files/22Thecolorofwhite.pdf

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

You are The expert on the subject and I only have limited knowledge of color science so i struggle to follow you. All in all shall I be happy with the hardware calibration and profiling I obtained vs my targets (D65 for whitepoint) or have to do it again?
Thanks
PS probably worth contuining the whitepoint discussion on dpr and leave this thread to the profile discussion

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

There is only one object that can produce D65 (an average of many measurements) and its 93 million miles from your display.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

So the short answer is that I shall be happy with the result achieved by the calibration (despite the dispcal fail)? Would appreciate a straight, non technical answer, thanks

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

What calibration? You are working with generic .dcp profiles. For display, the values WILL vary.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

:-) Difficult to get a straight answer from you. I am talking about the DPR post.
Shall I be happy with the results of that calibration (to D65) or not? If you can answer with a YES or NO would be great.

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

Watch the video! If you get a visual match to (whatever) that IS the correct number! If not, the calibration target is incorrect. Simple.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

1.8K Messages

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21.6K Points

3 years ago

About display calibration targets:
Why are my prints too dark?
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013

In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_m...
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

85 Messages

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1K Points

3 years ago

@Rikk

Going back to the main topic. Here is an example. 
Left is camera Standard, right is camera Neutral (also Adobe Standard looks similar)

You can see there is a yellow cast in camera Standard (eg color of the wall). Also, I was shooting in RAW + Jpg with Standard profile and in the jpg file there is no yellow cast.


Champion

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2.2K Messages

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37.4K Points

Differences you see between the other profiles is probably due to higher color saturation with the Camera Standard profile. Do you have LR's WB panel set to 'As Shot?' If not that's what's causing the difference you're seeing between the camera JPEG and Camera Standard raw file rendering. If it is set to 'As Shot' please post a camera JPEG and ARW file pair that exhibit the issue to Dropbox and we can see what's happening on our systems. Thank you!

85 Messages

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1K Points

yes, as shot.

take this raw https://www.dropbox.com/s/fsmt09hr3pvouyv/2018_01_Ghana_637.dng?dl=0

apply Camera Standard and then compare with the related jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mpgmgxstlpcfixx/DSC01411.JPG?dl=0

Thanks! 

Champion

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2.6K Messages

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33.7K Points

3 years ago

Comparing the DNG and JPG images on DropBox, to me it looks like all the Camera xxxx profiles have stronger yellows.  This is NOT the same as saying there is a yellow color cast because neutrals still seem neutral so no overall cast where whites are yellow, but the yellows are stronger.  Since the image does not have a full range of colors it is difficult to tell if it is only yellows or various other colors--do you have any market scenes with a range of vibrant colors?

Here are some comparisons the camera JPG and camera DNG with no corrections in LR, using side-by-side Reference View (Shift-R) mode:

First, here is using the Adobe Standard profile, which has slightly muted colors and in my opinion even weaker yellows than the camera JPG:


Here is the Camera Standard comparison where the yellow on the wall at the top right is more intense:


Here is the somewhat closer result after messing with the Camera Calibration Hue sliders for a bit to make the Camera Standard DNG closer to the JPG, though it's difficult to say how well these adjustments would work with other images with more colors:


One final comment is that checking the JPG metadata in EXIF Tool, while most settings are Standard, it appears that Dynamic Range Optimizer was set to Auto and if the camera actually did some auto-fixing before creating the JPG this could make things slightly different than whatever Adobe used when they did their calibrations and can make matching a RAW to a JPG a moving target from one photo to the next: