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66 Messages

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1.2K Points

Thu, May 10, 2012 7:34 PM

Solved

Lightroom: LR4.1 RC2 messing up Olympus RAW files

After updating to LR4.1 RC2, I noticed some serious issues with my Olympus E-PL1 RAW files today.

Usually I have my camera set to 3:2 aspect ratio (the standard on this camera is 4:3). But since I shoot RAW only, I can always go back to the original aspect ratio and recrop in postprocessing. That was fine with LR3 and even 4.0.

Now, in LR4.1 RC2 I noticed I cannot go back to the original aspect ratio anymore. LR seems to recognize now that the shot was taken in 3:2 and doesnt let you go back to the 4:3 even though the cropped information is in the RAW file of course.

Now, here is how LR3.6 will render the RAW file without making any adjustments:


But when I open and export the same RAW file from LR4.1 RC2 without making any adjustments(!) I see this:

This show that LR4.1 RC2 crops the image to 3:2 aspect ratio. And I cannot find any way of returning to the full information.

Unfortunately, however, the story doesnt end here. It get's much worse. I work with a dual monitor setup. When I view the file in LR4.1 RC2 - again, without any adjustments, the main window streches/squeezes the 3:2 information into a 4:3 aspect ratio. The secondary screen doesnt stetch or squeeze anything:
Note: It's a bit hard to notice in this screenshot. But you can measure it and will see that the photo on the left is 3:2 and on the right (my main window) is 4:3 (squeezed together). If you peek into the buildings you may see that the are sqeezed together a bit.

Further observations:
1) The problem only occurs with files that very not edited with a previous version of Lightroom. If I look at files that I edited in LR3.6, I can retain all information in 4:3.
2) The problem of cutting the image to 3:2 and not be able to go back to the original even though it's RAW, also occurs in Camera RAW 6.7.
3) On the last screen you might notice a diference in color rendition on both screens. That might be another color management inssue that I still have to look into (I work with two calibrated monitors).

I'm really surprised by the change of how LR4.1 RC2 handles the Olympus RAW files. For me, at this point this is a real bummer because not only LR is now dropping RAW information that I don't find a way to get back but also it messes with my whole workflow. Not to mention that the streching/squeezing of images on two screens is more than annoying.

I hope this gets fixed until the final. Otherwise it will be unusable for me.

Thanks,

Timo

P.S: If you need anymore information, pls let me know.

Responses

Official Solution

Employee

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629 Messages

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11.5K Points

9 years ago

The discrepancy of aspect ratio probably has to do with stale previews. Rebuilding the previews should fix that. As to the default aspect ratio, Lr will now set the crop of the image to whatever was set in the camera. If you want full flexibility to crop later, set your in-camera aspect ratio to 4:3.

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

Dear Eric,

thanks for your reply. But please allow me to repsond and explain why - in my opinion - this is an irresponsible way to treat your Lightroom customers.

The problem is not, that I cannot set my camera to 4:3 in order to get the full RAW files. The point is: What are photographers - who maybe have accumulated photo archives over years - supposed to do with files they already shot? You (Adobe) apparently decided to implement a feature ex post facto that limits the possibilites of RAW files that photographers already have and the workflow the were used to.

Let me give you another example to show you how stupid (sorry - but this makes me angry) the way this feature was implemented is:
Most cameras have a setting for black and white. Let's say you set your camera to B&W but still shoot RAW to get the full sensor information - just in case. Now you go out and shoot images. But during post-processing, you decide, you want certain pictures back in color again. No problem, right?
But what if Adobe were to implement a new "feature" with the future Lightroom 4.5 that reads the picture style or color control that was set in the camera and sets the image to black and white - but without any option to go back to color even though it's a RAW file? When customers complain - the answer is: Oh, if you want color, please set your camera to color and not to B&W. But, of course, this feature would affect also photos that people have already shot - maybe years ago. Ridiculous, right? Exactly!

Lightroom is a software designed to let users manage their photo archive with it. Such a software is expected to be a long term solution. We want to be able to work with our photos even 2 or 3 or 5 years after we shot them -without the fear that developing capabilities are lost because of new "features". But if Adobe decides to develop it's software regardless of previous workflows and limiting features it already offered, then obviously customers cannot rely on such software anymore.

So, please: I do get why such a feature can come in handy. But leave your customers the option to go back to the full photo - especially when they were used to from previous versions. Why is that so hard? If you think this feature is useful, then let Lightroom render the photo with the aspect ratio that was set in the camera. But as soon as the user hits the crop tool, he should to be able to work with the full sensor information with the original aspect ratio!

Cheers,

Timo

Employee

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629 Messages

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11.5K Points

Timo and others,

Understood. In the future, we may be able to implement a mechanism for retrieving the full (uncropped) image data. I did not mean to suggest this was impossible, or that we hadn't considered it. We actually did consider it this time around, but it didn't make the cut for various reasons.

3 Messages

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86 Points

Hallo Eric

I hope you will implement such a mecanism. The behaiviour of LR in this case goes completely against the idea of RAW - I suspect, the one responsible for this decision has not quite understood what RAW is for :(

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

@Eric - regarding your suggested fix for the distorted view of the photos:
This is a bug that is not caused by the previews. I now had the time to look into it. I deleted my previews folder completely and let LR render them again. The problem persists. So there is definitely a bug in the rendering engine. Oh, boy...

6 Messages

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112 Points

Eric, I'd just like to reiterate that I believe this implementation was VERY poorly thought out. For cameras with an EVF, I want to set a specific aspect ratio for framing purposes. That doesn't mean I don't still want the ability to change my mind later. Your suggestion to always shoot in 4:3 is (imho) a very disappointing answer. I urge you and the team to make this a higher priority.

Official Solution

Employee

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629 Messages

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11.5K Points

8 years ago

Hi folks,

I have a brief update on this. First, I want to say that I appreciate the feedback and understand what you are looking for. It is conceptually quite straightforward.

On the implementation side, things are a bit more complex. At present we do not have a mechanism for specifying a default crop rectangle that is different from the full uncropped raw image area. So, with all the cameras we've supported so far, we've had to make a decision as to whether to show the full uncropped image area (regardless of the in-camera aspect ratio / crop setting), or to honor the user's choice of in-camera aspect ratio / crop (at the expense of recovering the full image area later during editing). Neither option is ideal, obviously, but we had to pick one. In our testing, we found that users preferred the latter option: that is, the image you see in ACR/LR should match the aspect ratio & crop of what you saw on the back of the camera LCD when composing the picture.

Going forward with newly supported camera models, we plan to have a more flexible approach which provides the best of both worlds: the default rendering will honor the in-camera crop, yet users will be able to get back to the full uncropped image area (*). Unfortunately, gracefully handling already-supported camera models is more complex. This is because these images may have existing user-edited crops applied in ACR/LR, and we need to be sure we respect this as well (i.e., we must take care to avoid changing crops that users may have already applied). I am not saying we won't tackle this, but it may take more time to get there.

Eric

(*) Keep in mind that not all camera models support this. Some vendors actually crop the raw image data in the camera (i.e., they actually record fewer pixels when you change the aspect ratio), so it will not be possible to retrieve the "full" image area for these cases.

64 Messages

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894 Points

Thanks for the update.

I hope that for existing models, you will at least will give us the option of ignoring the in-camera crop and get the full sensor image, even if that means that we will have to perform a manual crop after import. In other words: return to the old way, Lightroom handled this.

Further, there seems to be a lot of user requests regarding crop functionality. This seems as a good opportunity to revamp the crop functionality and give us:

- A crop function which tries to maintain centre coordinate and area of existing crop rectangle when selecting a new aspect ratio.

- Crop presets.

- Access to crop rectangle through SDK without having to manipulate xmp files outside Lightroom.

- A possibility to adjust and store a number of different crop rectangles in each photo and recall those when exporting, so it gets easier to do exports of the same photos to different aspect ratios.

- A possibility of defining crop rectangles with fixed pixel sizes. (Yes, I know that a lot of people don't understand why someone would want this. But there must be a reason that Rob Cole has found it necessary to write a plugin for exactly that.)

11 Messages

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204 Points

So 9 months later and you still don't have an option? How about just add a menu option that says, "Reset to original camera resolution," then warn the user that this will remove any existing crop that they have applied?

For crying out loud, it can't possibly be as complicated as you're making it seem like. Come up with a solution and implement it, don't drag your feet because you can't do it "the way you'd ideally like to".

3 Messages

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86 Points

9 years ago

I'm using my cameras with RAW+jpg to make two pictures in one: a jpg out of camera, using camera picture mode and crop funtions, to get a "immediate" picture. And then I use the RAW to try out other ideas.
Now, with LR4.1RC2 (don't know if LR4 did that already, I went directly to 4.1RC2 because of my new OM-D), LR seems to crop the RAW to the format chosen in the camera for the jpg. Unacceptable. (And, frankly, it's rather silly, no?)

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

Well, I wouldn't mind, if Lightroom would automatically crop them to the aspect ratio set in the camera BUT ONLY as long as I am able to reset the crop to the full 4:3 raw photo when I click on the crop tool.

For me, it is unacceptable that LR changed it's behaviour with this new release.

3 Messages

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86 Points

I can agree with that. I my mind, automatically cropping RAW pictures is completely against the idea of RAW as data as unaltered as possible, to gice the fotograph full liberty to what he wants; so I'd prefer a button where you can activate the crop ;)
But a no-choice-crop is a no go.
I never realised it up to now, because I never used the jpgs, but the new camera types make this option very interesting - and LR sabotages it.

11 Messages

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204 Points

I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY DID THIS. This is the most idiotic lack of a feature I've ever seen. How could a product as "mature" as Lightroom 4.4 simply NOT have the ability to use the entire RAW file, and "force" you to crop it like that? What in the heck, Adobe?

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

9 years ago

Any word on this issue from Adobe?

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

ADOBE PLEASE FIX THIS!

11 Messages

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204 Points

+1!

54 Messages

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1.4K Points

9 years ago

I guess I'll add my voice to the list of people who want this changed back (started my own topic after doing a search, but "Aspet Ratio" is hard to search for :) ).

I understand that some people asked that the RAW be cropped to the ratio set in camera, so this was changed sometime in the 3.x cycle (and I understand their reasoning). However, I think the case is much stronger that RAW files should never be altered by default, and certainly not irretrievably - they're RAW files, after all.

With the OM-D, setting the camera to a 3:2 ratio gives a better combination of displays for the LCD (which is 3:2) and EVF (which is 4:3, but I prefer the modes that put the shooting info along the bottom, and 3:2 gives the largest view in those modes).

I would like to strongly urge the Lightroom team to change this behavior, either by respecting the 4:3 nature of m43 RAW files, or at least providing a preference to allow users to determine their preferred behavior.

12 Messages

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436 Points

9 years ago

Here is a duplicate thread I started a while back. You can have a look for more of the same. I'll spare my comments here, but this issue needs to be corrected. If this is intended behavior then Adobe needs to take a closer look at their intentions and who this product is designed for.

http://gsfn.us/t/2rhj6

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

9 years ago

Short update (for those who skipped my latest reply to Eric):

I finally had the time to look into the solution that Eric suggested for the distorted view problem of the files. Rebuilding previews doesn't help. So it seems like a bug that needs to be fixed. So, now, I can wait for LR4.2 and hope that the problems are fixed and that I eventually get a fully working version of LR4. Such a mess.

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

I have got the same problem like Timo S.: Rebuilding the previews doesn't work, the pictures stay distorted... ADOBE PLEEEEAAAASE FIX THIS!! That's absolutely ridicolous for a state of the art raw-development software tool. Well I should say for a formerly state of the art software tool...

Employee

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629 Messages

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11.5K Points

9 years ago

We've tried to reproduce the aspect ratio discrepancy between the two displays in-house, but haven't seen it happen yet (aspect ratios are consistent between the two). We'll keep trying, but it would be helpful if you could send an example raw file for which this is happening consistently on your end (you can use madmanchan2000@yahoo.com with YouSendIt, dropbox, etc.).

Also, please try clearing your Camera Raw cache in Lightroom's Preferences -> File Handling -> Camera Raw Cache Settings -> Purge Cache button.

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

I just tried - both clearing the Camera RAW Cache as well as deleting the Previews - and it didn't help. I send you an email with two Olympus RAW files that should exemplify the problem.

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

Thanks Eric Chan, clearing the Camera Raw Cache worked finally. But not very smooth - the distortion vanished not until i zoomed into the picture...

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

The problem still occurs! Zut as the french say. It now only occurs in the develop module. When I open the picture at first I see the correct aspect ratio of the preview, then this gets replaced after half a second by the wrong aspect ratio and is again distorted... If I produce a jpeg via "Export" I get an jpeg with correct aspect ratio... I will send you an raw file via mail and dropbox link.

Employee

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629 Messages

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11.5K Points

9 years ago

Are you sure you've cleared both Lr previews and the ACR cache?

66 Messages

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1.2K Points

I am sure that I did both - but it didn't help. But thanks for keeping on it.

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

I definitely deleted both: At first the ACR Cache and after that I closed LR 4.1 and deleted the previews. After relaunching I had the problem like described above.

9 Messages

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134 Points

9 years ago

Hi Eric Chan, any news for us?