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14 Messages

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132 Points

Fri, Sep 21, 2018 7:04 AM

1

Feature to remove banding in photos from mirrorless cameras

Newest mirrorless digital cameras seem to have issues with banding. It would be great if Lightroom would have a feature to remove or reduce this banding.
These particular kinds of banding can appear apparently due to on-sensor phase detect detectors messing up with the quality of the  image (especially when lifting up shadows in post production), or when using digital (AKA silent) shutter with very short exposure under LED lights (which seems to produce rainbow-like vertiacal color gradients in the photo).

These banding issues have recently been reported e.g. in latest fullframe mirrorless cameras from Sony, Nikon and Canon.

Sony Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Dgf4Bij7U

Nikon Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MKDB9dOSp4

Canon Banding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwUHBolbCbU

Not sure if these are possible to fix in post by Lightroom, but if possible, it would really improve the quality of images from modern cameras.



Responses

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

Banding can be in the actual image data (rare for raw) or in the display path; which is which?

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

BTW, only way to examine for banding is in Develop module at 1:1 or greater zoom. Still could be banding in the Display not image data. Ditto for ACR.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I believe the banding is already in the actual image data. There’s nothing “wrong” in LR. I was just hoping LR could improve the image data that cameras produce in this case too.

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

Upload a raw!

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

I’ve got a mirror less system and no banding and a fully high bit display path. The later is the only way to avoid all visible banding.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

Jared Polin, who did one of the Sony banding videos, has RAW files available here:
http://froknowsphoto.com/wp-content/u...

His original Youtube video about the issue is here:
https://youtu.be/F9Dgf4Bij7U

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

The link for the raw file is no good.So you have no actual raw files where you see the banding?

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I don’t have any. I don’t have these new cameras yet, but about to buy one. Too bad he screwed up those links. Please check these new, different links:
https://froknowsphoto.com/my-sony-a9-...

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

You need to realize that there are two places were banding can occur. One is in the display path. The other is in the image data. If the banding is in the image data then we need to see proof. However if the banding is in the display path there is absolutely nothing that Adobe can do to fix this. This is a hardware issue. This is not an image data issue.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I’m not sure what is “display path”.

However, LR can remove noise, which caused by hardware and written into the “image data”. This banding here is just specific kind of color noise that occurs in horizontal and vertical “bands” only. It’s clearly visible in those YouTube videos.

We’re you not able to open the second link with Sony A9 examples?

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

LR absolutely cannot remove noise from the display path! It's like asking to clone a spot that resides on the surface of the display rather than cleaning off the display! The banding may be in the image data. I doubt it from any raw file that isn't massively incorrectly handled (exposed for one). High bit raw files should have ZERO data banding. Display path banding has NOTHING to do with image data. You're asking to fix an issue that doesn't exist unless you can provide proof the high bit raw exhibits banding and so far, no such files have been provided. 
Examine this file below. See ANY banding whatsoever? If you do, it's your display path. 
 http://digitaldog.net/files/10-bit-test-ramp.zip
Now read this:
http://digitaldog.net/files/TheHighBitdepthDebate.pdf

You absolutely CAN NOT gauge banding viewing a video over the net. You MUST provide access of the raw data to people like myself that DO have high bit display paths where banding ONLY shows when banding exists IN the image data. Understand? 

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

>>I’m not sure what is “display path”. 

Video card, display, OS, application; all must be 'high bit' (more than 8-bits per color). Any part of this path that isn't high bit, converts to 8-bits per color and you can then see banding on-screen. EVEN if there's NO data banding. See? You may have perfectly fine image data and see banding. It's not the image data, it's not the camera, there's nothing Adobe can 'fix'. Is your video card 10-bit? How about your web browser (very unlikely). Until couple years ago, Photoshop on Mac wasn't high bit savvy through the display path.  And not all modules in Adobe products provide high bit previews!!! The previews in all modules in LR expect develop are JPEGs. You must view the raw in Develop at 1:1 or greater. Even in Develop, you may see banding where NONE exists because you've zoomed out of the image and it's being subsampled down for preview. Is there banding? No there isn't. It's simply artifacts of the display system, not the image data. 
The video you watched is bogus. Ignore it. Test your system with the file I provided by viewing at 1:1. If you see ANY banding, it's your display system. Not the data. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I tried but I cannot upload the 80MB RAW files here, as there's a 2MB limit. :)
I downscaled one of Fro's images to JPG here. The player's white outfit is all banding.

Actual RAWs (including this image) can still be downloaded directly from: 

Sample BANDING RAW images 01
Sample BANDING RAW images 02
Sample BANDING RAW images 03







1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

Your image example above is meaningless and I've explained why. Until you can provide a raw file for proper examination, you're wasting both or our time here. But at least you know the technical reasons why..... 

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

I'm sorry I don't understand. Are you not able to click on those RAW image download links? They directly download zip files full of RAW files that are full of these banding issues! How can you say I'm not providing RAW images? They're right there, click the links. :)

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

2 years ago

I've opened that image with the man #3. That is NOT image banding!
Absolutely no way. 
Have you ever heard of a moiré pattern? Look it up. 
Are these your shots? 
IF so, simply properly expose a gray card out of focus. See banding? Upload THAT raw. 

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Champion

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2.6K Messages

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33.7K Points

To me moire is when a sharp detail in the image projected on the sensor has a similar periodicity to the sensor photosite spacing.  Since the areas in these images are out of focus and full of noise so I don't see how this can be moire in the normal sense, at least.

Something is wrong with these images but it is wrong in the various raw converters I've tried.  To me it looks like a sensor issue.  Not having watched the videos I don't know what FroKnows' analysis or conclusion is. 

1.5K Messages

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19.6K Points

What I see isn’t banding as properly defined.

Author “Color Management for Photographers"

14 Messages

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132 Points

2 years ago

Interesting. I've heard of moiré yes, but never seen it manifest itself like this. Still I'm leaning to direction that you are right and the Youtuber is wrong.
These are not my shots, they are provided by the same guy who is on the Youtube video (Jared Polin).

Maybe we'll put this issue to rest for now then. It's a little while longer until these new Nikons and Canons are on sale. If I see banding after getting one, I'll get back to you with a RAW file. :)

Thanks.

Champion

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2.6K Messages

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33.7K Points

BTW you can share raw files by uploading them to somewhere like DropBox, GoogleDrive, OneDrive, and include a public share link to them in a reply, here.